Hook swords

Gavin Nugent · 11th April 2009, 03:28 AM

Here is something a little off the wall.

I am looking for genuine antique examples of Chinese hook swords or those similar in style from museums or private collections. So far I have found a few references but they all date from approx 1920.
Any direction, images or information would be greatly appreciated as these weapons are extremely rare and often unheard of.
I have pretty much exhausted all info that is on the net so if anyone can bring anything else to light from their travels or reading or net links that are a little off the beaten track as far as standard word searchs go, please let me know.

regards

Gav

Jim McDougall · 13th April 2009, 06:33 PM

Hi Gav,
Well, as if Chinese weapons weren't esoteric enough around here, you have gone yet another dimension!!

What an absolutely fascinating topic, and since I know little on Chinese weapons.....and if possible, even less on these, I started doing some homework.

Most of what I found is likely the same ground you have already covered, which is that as happens with most weapons that defy the understanding of the west, these are lumped into the martial arts anomalies of the latter Qing period. This same unfortunate attitude which has been exacerbated by the theatrical Hollywood movies sensationalizing these themes, has led to some nominally shallow scholarly work concerning some of these weapons. It is claimed that these type hook swords may date to the Song dynasty and Warring States, but since no examples are included in contemporary armaments records as far as discovered, this can only be speculation.

It seems to me that much as with many martial arts, especially those using weapons of varying form, much of thier use is intentionally theatrical, and often may appear simply psychologically threatening. This is known to have been the case during the Boxer Rebellion, where these Chinese martial artists deliberately put on most intimidating performances before the forces of various of the countries present. The same elaborate movement exercises are used in SE Asia, Japan, India, and certainly many others.
While appearing theatrical, the conditioning and familiarity with the weapons would render any warrior or individual potentially lethal in actual combat, regardless if following regimented or scheduled movements or not, even for that matter if not even using the weapon form itself.

I think that probably somewhere in some lost references in a musty archive, there may well be some sort of reference to these, along with those of many of these incredibly exotic weapon forms of China. Hopefully lurking out there may be a scholar who has stepped far beyond the bounds of the shallow research we so often are faced with when it comes to these type weapons.

I am inclined to think there are.

All best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 14th April 2009, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Gav,
Well, as if Chinese weapons weren't esoteric enough around here, you have gone yet another dimension!!

What an absolutely fascinating topic, and since I know little on Chinese weapons.....and if possible, even less on these, I started doing some homework.

G'day Jim,

Thanks for coming in on this posting. A man of your knowledge may just pull a rabbit out of your hat, well a file out of the book mobile at least.

One member thus far has been nice enough to privately share images of a nice one he has in his possesion. I am sure there are others out there within this community who have snipits of historical information about these, information that strays from the mainstream and quite possibly there are some nice pairs hidden away in their collections too. Wether published openly or privately I would love to see more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think that probably somewhere in some lost references in a musty archive, there may well be some sort of reference to these, along with those of many of these incredibly exotic weapon forms of China. Hopefully lurking out there may be a scholar who has stepped far beyond the bounds of the shallow research we so often are faced with when it comes to these type weapons.

I am inclined to think there are.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim,

It would be nice if there were others who could share first hand information and examples.
I have had a very helpful gentleman share some scans on the subject at hand but it is in Chinese. I will get to having it translated before long.

Take a deep breath everyone and follow your nose to the unexplored corners of your librarys, there may just be something of interest no matter how mundane that might just lead to another snipit and so on.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 14th April 2009, 04:50 AM

Thanks Gav!
I'm really hoping something comes up and to learning more on these!

All the best,
Jim

VANDOO · 14th April 2009, 09:21 PM

I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY CHINESE HOOK SWORD, BUT PERHAPS THIS IS WHAT YOU HAD IN MIND.

IT IS REFERRED TO AS HOOK (GOU) I INCLUDE SOME PICTURES OF ONE OF MINE THIS IS THE MOST COMMON FORM BUT THERE ARE VARIATIONS. THEY ARE USED AS A PAIR LIKE THE BUTTERFLY SWORDS AND ARE SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS "TIGER HEAD DOUBLE HOOK " (HU TOU SHUANG GOU). IT WAS USED TO ATTACK THE ENEMYS OR HORSES LEGS AND WAS USED IN PERSONEL ATTACKS AT SHORT RANGE. STABBING, HOOKING AND BLOCKING WERE EFFECTIVE AND THE CRESENT OVER THE HANDLE COULD BE USED TO CUT AT CLOSE RANGE.
THIS FORM IS SAID TO DATE FROM THE SPRING AND AUTUMN PERIOD AND THE WARRING STATESPERIOD (722 -222 B.C.) AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT THE BOOK SAYS.
THERE IS A MORE SIMPLE FORM REFERRED TO AS (JI ZHUA YIN YANG RUI) CHICKEN CLAW YIN-YANG SHARP IT WAS USED IN BAGUAZHANG STYLE WHICH STARTED IN THE QING DYNASTY (1644-1912 AD)

Jim McDougall · 14th April 2009, 11:01 PM

There ya go Barry!!! Why am I not surprised you'd have one of these!!!

Thank you for comin in,
All the best,
Jim

fearn · 15th April 2009, 01:47 AM

Hi Vandoo,

I knew someone out there had a set. As for the rooster knives of baguazhang, so far as I know, they were first used by Liang Zhen Pu, the youngest disciple of Dong Hai Chuan, the system's founder.

One charming thing about the founder and first generation of bagua practitioners, almost all of them had unique weapons that were their signatures. Some were used by prior warriors, some were invented or adapted by these guys.

Bottom line for this thread is that the tiger double hooks are sort of the normal form of this weapon, and the more exotic variations tend to be the personal weapons of noted martial artists.

Fun pattern, isn't it?

F

For those who are interested, here is the list I have of first generation bagua artists and their personal weapons. The ones starred appear to be unique to bagua, at least originally.

Dong Hai Chuan (founder): deer horn knives*

Yin fu: emei/bagua needles (underwater weapon. 20 cm double-ended needles with a ring on a pivot, to slip onto your fingers)

Cheng Ting Hua: elbow knives (paired forearm length knives. Supposedly these are a soldier's weapon, but I've never seen them outside of bagua. They aren't hudiedao)

Li Cun Yi: Bagua dao (this is the double-sized willow-leaf dao that Cold Steel and other companies are selling. I think it was a weapon of the Imperial Court before bagua came along).

Zhang Zhao Dong: Bullwhip (shades of Indiana Jones--this art was never passed on to his students).

Liang Zhen Pu: Rooster knives* aka ji zhua yin ran rui

M ELEY · 15th April 2009, 07:06 AM

www.sevenstarstrading.com

Scott Rodell's catalogs are great and occasionally have some of those awsome hooks. His site has one for sale right now, but I didn't post a direct link as I didn't want to breal any forum rules. I'd like to see more of these posted, if anyone else wants to share (Barry, that is too cool that you have a set of these!) I've always wanted one. Maybe some day...

Gavin Nugent · 15th April 2009, 01:26 PM

Gone for 2 nights and a day and look what I come back too.....

Excellent, thanks.

Gav

VANDOO · 15th April 2009, 09:40 PM

MY EXAMPLE IS 39 INCHES LONG AND HAS EDGES FRONT AND BACK ON ALL STRIKING SURFACES. THE EDGES ARE NOT RAZOR SHARP BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY ENOUGH OF AN EDGE TO CUT AND BREAK BONES WITH A GOOD STRIKE. NOTE THE HOOKED TIP IS DESIGNED TO STRIKE AND PENETRATE A TARGET AND THEN HOOK INSIDE.
HERE ARE SOME MORE VARIATIONS, THE MAN HAS THE CHICKEN CLAW WEAPONS.

Gavin Nugent · 17th April 2009, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY CHINESE HOOK SWORD, BUT PERHAPS THIS IS WHAT YOU HAD IN MIND.

IT IS REFERRED TO AS HOOK (GOU)

Thanks guys,

Gou or Shuang Gou was what I was referring to. I thought it better to post hook swords as it is more generic and they are more commonly known as hook swords in western circles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

I knew someone out there had a set. As for the rooster knives of baguazhang, so far as I know, they were first used by Liang Zhen Pu, the youngest disciple of Dong Hai Chuan, the system's founder.

One charming thing about the founder and first generation of bagua practitioners, almost all of them had unique weapons that were their signatures. Some were used by prior warriors, some were invented or adapted by these guys.

Bottom line for this thread is that the tiger double hooks are sort of the normal form of this weapon, and the more exotic variations tend to be the personal weapons of noted martial artists.

Fun pattern, isn't it?

F

Extremely interesting notes there Fearn, weapons that were their signitures is most interesting. Are there historical references available I can draw from for further research in to these hook weapons and the art of Bagua?
They certainly are a fun pattern and I will certainly have more to share on the patterns in the months to come.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Li Cun Yi: Bagua dao (this is the double-sized willow-leaf dao that Cold Steel and other companies are selling. I think it was a weapon of the Imperial Court before bagua came along).

I'd be inclined to agree with this statement too as I have seen both a line drawing from the late 1800's and an example of this over sized blade. It is more than possible that they were around a long time before the late 1800's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Scott Rodell's catalogs are great and occasionally have some of those awsome hooks. His site has one for sale right now, but I didn't post a direct link as I didn't want to breal any forum rules. I'd like to see more of these posted, if anyone else wants to share (Barry, that is too cool that you have a set of these!) I've always wanted one. Maybe some day...

Thanks you Mark. I have seen them there for a while now. I would be interested to know if printed catalogues are still distributed by Scott Rodell? I have heard from Jim that there are some great resouce images available within the pages? Does anyone have any they could share with me if they have the time, we are all quite limited in the land downunder as to what is readily available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

MY EXAMPLE IS 39 INCHES LONG AND HAS EDGES FRONT AND BACK ON ALL STRIKING SURFACES. THE EDGES ARE NOT RAZOR SHARP BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY ENOUGH OF AN EDGE TO CUT AND BREAK BONES WITH A GOOD STRIKE.

Thanks Barry, good to know, of all the examples I have seen, they all fit the 38-39 inch mark overall.

All from me for now guys, the doc said go rest up for a few days, I do look forward to what ever else comes to light in my next visit in to the uknown world of the gou..

Gav

M ELEY · 19th April 2009, 04:48 AM

Hello Gav,
I do have a small handful of Mr Rodell's old catalogs, but I'm not too handy with a digital camera to get that kind of detail. I suppose I could xerox a copy and mail it to you? Let me know if you are interested via PM. Thanks

fearn · 19th April 2009, 05:37 AM

Hi Gav,

There's a book currently out, The Whirling Circles of Ba Gua Zhang by Allen and Zhang that has all this stuff in it.

Best,

F

Gavin Nugent · 19th April 2009, 07:43 AM

Thanks guys,

Mark, I will be in touch and Fearn, is there an ISBN number I can refer to.

regards

Gav

fearn · 19th April 2009, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Thanks guys,

Mark, I will be in touch and Fearn, is there an ISBN number I can refer to.

regards

Gav

978-1583941898

11th April 2009, 03:28 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hook swords Here is something a little off the wall. I am looking for genuine antique examples of Chinese hook swords or those similar in style from museums or private collections. So far I have found a few references but they all date from approx 1920. Any direction, images or information would be greatly appreciated as these weapons are extremely rare and often unheard of. I have pretty much exhausted all info that is on the net so if anyone can bring anything else to light from their travels or reading or net links that are a little off the beaten track as far as standard word searchs go, please let me know. regards Gav Last edited by freebooter; 11th April 2009 at 03:55 AM.

14th April 2009, 09:21 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY CHINESE HOOK SWORD, BUT PERHAPS THIS IS WHAT YOU HAD IN MIND. IT IS REFERRED TO AS HOOK (GOU) I INCLUDE SOME PICTURES OF ONE OF MINE THIS IS THE MOST COMMON FORM BUT THERE ARE VARIATIONS. THEY ARE USED AS A PAIR LIKE THE BUTTERFLY SWORDS AND ARE SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS "TIGER HEAD DOUBLE HOOK " (HU TOU SHUANG GOU). IT WAS USED TO ATTACK THE ENEMYS OR HORSES LEGS AND WAS USED IN PERSONEL ATTACKS AT SHORT RANGE. STABBING, HOOKING AND BLOCKING WERE EFFECTIVE AND THE CRESENT OVER THE HANDLE COULD BE USED TO CUT AT CLOSE RANGE. THIS FORM IS SAID TO DATE FROM THE SPRING AND AUTUMN PERIOD AND THE WARRING STATESPERIOD (722 -222 B.C.) AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT THE BOOK SAYS. THERE IS A MORE SIMPLE FORM REFERRED TO AS (JI ZHUA YIN YANG RUI) CHICKEN CLAW YIN-YANG SHARP IT WAS USED IN BAGUAZHANG STYLE WHICH STARTED IN THE QING DYNASTY (1644-1912 AD) Attached Images

15th April 2009, 01:26 PM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Wow guys! Gone for 2 nights and a day and look what I come back too..... Excellent, thanks. Gav

15th April 2009, 09:40 PM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MY EXAMPLE IS 39 INCHES LONG AND HAS EDGES FRONT AND BACK ON ALL STRIKING SURFACES. THE EDGES ARE NOT RAZOR SHARP BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY ENOUGH OF AN EDGE TO CUT AND BREAK BONES WITH A GOOD STRIKE. NOTE THE HOOKED TIP IS DESIGNED TO STRIKE AND PENETRATE A TARGET AND THEN HOOK INSIDE. HERE ARE SOME MORE VARIATIONS, THE MAN HAS THE CHICKEN CLAW WEAPONS. Attached Images

19th April 2009, 07:43 AM	#14
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks guys Thanks guys, Mark, I will be in touch and Fearn, is there an ISBN number I can refer to. regards Gav

13th April 2009, 06:33 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Hi Gav, Well, as if Chinese weapons weren't esoteric enough around here, you have gone yet another dimension!! What an absolutely fascinating topic, and since I know little on Chinese weapons.....and if possible, even less on these, I started doing some homework. Most of what I found is likely the same ground you have already covered, which is that as happens with most weapons that defy the understanding of the west, these are lumped into the martial arts anomalies of the latter Qing period. This same unfortunate attitude which has been exacerbated by the theatrical Hollywood movies sensationalizing these themes, has led to some nominally shallow scholarly work concerning some of these weapons. It is claimed that these type hook swords may date to the Song dynasty and Warring States, but since no examples are included in contemporary armaments records as far as discovered, this can only be speculation. It seems to me that much as with many martial arts, especially those using weapons of varying form, much of thier use is intentionally theatrical, and often may appear simply psychologically threatening. This is known to have been the case during the Boxer Rebellion, where these Chinese martial artists deliberately put on most intimidating performances before the forces of various of the countries present. The same elaborate movement exercises are used in SE Asia, Japan, India, and certainly many others. While appearing theatrical, the conditioning and familiarity with the weapons would render any warrior or individual potentially lethal in actual combat, regardless if following regimented or scheduled movements or not, even for that matter if not even using the weapon form itself. I think that probably somewhere in some lost references in a musty archive, there may well be some sort of reference to these, along with those of many of these incredibly exotic weapon forms of China. Hopefully lurking out there may be a scholar who has stepped far beyond the bounds of the shallow research we so often are faced with when it comes to these type weapons. I am inclined to think there are. All best regards, Jim

14th April 2009, 04:50 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Thanks Gav! I'm really hoping something comes up and to learning more on these! All the best, Jim

14th April 2009, 11:01 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	There ya go Barry!!! Why am I not surprised you'd have one of these!!! Thank you for comin in, All the best, Jim

15th April 2009, 01:47 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Vandoo, I knew someone out there had a set. As for the rooster knives of baguazhang, so far as I know, they were first used by Liang Zhen Pu, the youngest disciple of Dong Hai Chuan, the system's founder. One charming thing about the founder and first generation of bagua practitioners, almost all of them had unique weapons that were their signatures. Some were used by prior warriors, some were invented or adapted by these guys. Bottom line for this thread is that the tiger double hooks are sort of the normal form of this weapon, and the more exotic variations tend to be the personal weapons of noted martial artists. Fun pattern, isn't it? F For those who are interested, here is the list I have of first generation bagua artists and their personal weapons. The ones starred appear to be unique to bagua, at least originally. Dong Hai Chuan (founder): deer horn knives* Yin fu: emei/bagua needles (underwater weapon. 20 cm double-ended needles with a ring on a pivot, to slip onto your fingers) Cheng Ting Hua: elbow knives (paired forearm length knives. Supposedly these are a soldier's weapon, but I've never seen them outside of bagua. They aren't hudiedao) Li Cun Yi: Bagua dao (this is the double-sized willow-leaf dao that Cold Steel and other companies are selling. I think it was a weapon of the Imperial Court before bagua came along). Zhang Zhao Dong: Bullwhip (shades of Indiana Jones--this art was never passed on to his students). Liang Zhen Pu: Rooster knives* aka ji zhua yin ran rui

15th April 2009, 07:06 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	www.sevenstarstrading.com Scott Rodell's catalogs are great and occasionally have some of those awsome hooks. His site has one for sale right now, but I didn't post a direct link as I didn't want to breal any forum rules. I'd like to see more of these posted, if anyone else wants to share (Barry, that is too cool that you have a set of these!) I've always wanted one. Maybe some day...

19th April 2009, 04:48 AM	#12
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Gav, I do have a small handful of Mr Rodell's old catalogs, but I'm not too handy with a digital camera to get that kind of detail. I suppose I could xerox a copy and mail it to you? Let me know if you are interested via PM. Thanks

19th April 2009, 05:37 AM	#13
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Gav, There's a book currently out, The Whirling Circles of Ba Gua Zhang by Allen and Zhang that has all this stuff in it. Best, F