Scabbard Mount ID please

Atlantia · 29th March 2009, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Addendum:

Ok, I was going berserk trying to figure out what in the world Mughal India and shamrocks had to do with each other! Trying to find information on the lowly three leaf clover is nearly impossible..its all about the four leafs.

In "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (Robert Elgood, 2004, p.122, figs 11.19 & 11.22) are swords with pommels having three sphere form, representing botanicals such as lotus buds, and associated with 16th century Mughal weapons.
The theme indeed represents the trimurti (trinity) of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva, and it is further noted on p.126 that "...the symbol, like that denoting clubs on a pack of cards, occurs as a decorative motif on temples such as Gangaikondacholapuram"... (now try to pronounce that one !

) "...which was built in the early 11th. c."

Truly, I am in awe buddy!
What a strange way for me to finally own a part of a sword from the Mughal period!
God I wish I had the rest of it

Do you think 17thc is about secure date wise?
I'm really not sure when gilding became commonplace in that part of the world?

Thanks
Gene

ward · 29th March 2009, 09:13 PM

Sorry but I think you are looking at a lot later period of time,gilding of this type was done into the 20th century. The work level of the engraving is not on par with the standards of the time. It could be but it is doubtful.

Atlantia · 29th March 2009, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

Sorry but I think you are looking at a lot later period of time,guilding of this type was done into the 20th century. The work level of the engraving is not on par with the standards of the time. It could be but it is doughtful.

Hi mate, don't be sorry!
I'm not particularly bothered if its later. Its certainly antique, 'just' antique or 17thC , its all good!
when I think of the 'hayday' of guilding it's the late 18th through the 19th.
Anywhere in that period is fine in this case, if I think it'll go on my Shamshir, and I can be bothered to construct a scabbard then it can stay, otherwise it'll be off on its travels!

ward · 29th March 2009, 09:52 PM

I think 19th century is a good dating

Jim McDougall · 29th March 2009, 10:07 PM

Hi Gene,
I'm glad I could help, and I apologize for not stating my findings more clearly. I meant to note that this style mount was of the form seen on 17th century Mughal scabbards, but clearly this is much later as Ward has aptly noted, and I entirely agree with 19th century assessment.

It is important to remember that while blades were typically heirlooms, and hilt mounts and scabbards were often refurbished through generations. With this being the case, traditions in elemental style were typically maintained in degree, with of course subtle customizing according to the new owner.

Since this is compellingly a Mughal piece, in my opinion it would not seem at all out of place on a shamshir, a highly prized weapon in Mughal courts.
Essentially you are simply following a well established tradition

All the best,
Jim

Atlantia · 30th March 2009, 01:52 PM

Brilliant, thank you gentlemen, I'm happy with 19thC as a most likely date, it confirms my inital thoughts (based soley on the guilding).

Jim McDougall · 31st March 2009, 11:23 PM

Hi Gene,
Just a little addendum here that I found extremely interesting. As I was browsing through on book on prehistoric to ancient shamanism, I was completely stunned by an illustration of a group of knives from the European Iron Age, around 1st c. B.C.
These were found in excavated tomb from St.Georges les Baillargeaux (Vienne), and the ring type pommels were open rings in remarkably the same shape as this suspension ring, and were believed for rituals by a shaman.

What is interesting here is to see how incredibly far back these stylized shapes and forms extended, and how influences from other regions in ancient times diffused into the Indian subcontinent. While not suggesting any direct contact of course, it is like most actual trade diffusion, the result of tribal or group interaction in the farthest regions of certain cultural or tribal spheres with others moving in the directions extending far beyond to other frontiers.
I believe in anthropology this type of diffusion and influence may be considered folk memory in degree.

Just thought it might be interesting,
All the best,
Jim

29th March 2009, 09:13 PM	#2
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Sorry but I think you are looking at a lot later period of time,gilding of this type was done into the 20th century. The work level of the engraving is not on par with the standards of the time. It could be but it is doubtful. Last edited by ward; 30th March 2009 at 03:07 AM.

29th March 2009, 09:52 PM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I think 19th century is a good dating

29th March 2009, 10:07 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	Hi Gene, I'm glad I could help, and I apologize for not stating my findings more clearly. I meant to note that this style mount was of the form seen on 17th century Mughal scabbards, but clearly this is much later as Ward has aptly noted, and I entirely agree with 19th century assessment. It is important to remember that while blades were typically heirlooms, and hilt mounts and scabbards were often refurbished through generations. With this being the case, traditions in elemental style were typically maintained in degree, with of course subtle customizing according to the new owner. Since this is compellingly a Mughal piece, in my opinion it would not seem at all out of place on a shamshir, a highly prized weapon in Mughal courts. Essentially you are simply following a well established tradition All the best, Jim

30th March 2009, 01:52 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Brilliant, thank you gentlemen, I'm happy with 19thC as a most likely date, it confirms my inital thoughts (based soley on the guilding).

31st March 2009, 11:23 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	Hi Gene, Just a little addendum here that I found extremely interesting. As I was browsing through on book on prehistoric to ancient shamanism, I was completely stunned by an illustration of a group of knives from the European Iron Age, around 1st c. B.C. These were found in excavated tomb from St.Georges les Baillargeaux (Vienne), and the ring type pommels were open rings in remarkably the same shape as this suspension ring, and were believed for rituals by a shaman. What is interesting here is to see how incredibly far back these stylized shapes and forms extended, and how influences from other regions in ancient times diffused into the Indian subcontinent. While not suggesting any direct contact of course, it is like most actual trade diffusion, the result of tribal or group interaction in the farthest regions of certain cultural or tribal spheres with others moving in the directions extending far beyond to other frontiers. I believe in anthropology this type of diffusion and influence may be considered folk memory in degree. Just thought it might be interesting, All the best, Jim