Hudiedao

Gavin Nugent · 29th March 2009, 07:29 AM

Another image off the net of a Street performer in America circa 1900.

fearn · 29th March 2009, 04:16 PM

Neat pieces, and an excellent collection, FB. I'd like to know the size on these pieces, if you have a chance.

I know that the books on wing chun (one of the systems that uses the hudiedao) that they were thought to be monk's weapons, perhaps kept in riding boots. Personally, I put that in the same slot as capoeira being developed by slaves in the Brazilian plantations, but whatever.

Of more interest, I recall seeing paired korean swords that were used by female guards of the emperor's harem. The idea was that they were somewhat smaller (for women) and good in enclosed spaces.

I'm not arguing against your alley swords, but I wonder if they started in alleys, started as indoor weapons, or were just recognized as a good design that works well in confined spaces, whatever those are.

Best,

F

Gavin Nugent · 1st April 2009, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Neat pieces, and an excellent collection, FB. I'd like to know the size on these pieces, if you have a chance.

Thanks Fearn,

Comments like that are always appreciated.

In time I will post the data you are interested in, it is just that at the moment I am short on time for as many posting as I would like too within this forum.
Please feel free to contact me via email for interim correspondence about these pieces, I check email daily.

Gav

KuKulzA28 · 22nd July 2009, 04:30 AM

bumping this thread in case anyone can add more info about the Hu-die-dao and also Guang-dong and Hoklo weaponry/fighting

In USA, many of the "Tongs" (Chinese gangs) were known to use axes and "tommy-guns", would Hu-die-dao have been amongst their weapons?

M ELEY · 22nd July 2009, 05:14 AM

Thanks for bumping this thread, as I missed it the first time around. I have always been keenly interested in the so-called "river pirate swords". I am assuming that the curved guard could be used like a bien, to parry or even break an opponent's sword? The back alleys and tight tea-houses of China would seem to be the obvious reasoning for these smaller bladed swords that often fit into one scabbard. They would have made ideal "pirate" swords in that they could also be used in the tight confines of a ship without stabbing a fellow shipmate in battle or becoming intangled in the rigging. This was the exact same reason smaller cutlass and hangers went to sea in the Western navies and merchantmen.
Now I am NOT saying that I necessarily accept this as fact, but in more than one book on piracy circulating around, one can see one of these hu-die-daos (didn't know the name of it. Thanks, Gav) that was supposedly carried by one of Captain Kidd's crew. Of course, there was plenty of trading going on to support this. Likewise, pirates came from all walks of life (think of the whaling crews made up of Maori, Africans, Haitians, Polynesians, etc). Very interesting swords, none the less...

Gavin Nugent · 22nd July 2009, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

bumping this thread in case anyone can add more info about the Hu-die-dao and also Guang-dong and Hoklo weaponry/fighting

In USA, many of the "Tongs" (Chinese gangs) were known to use axes and "tommy-guns", would Hu-die-dao have been amongst their weapons?

Most certainly,

There have been some good articles found in Harpers Weekly in the early 1900s that document this and other weapons of choice.

You will find some of these dao above and others within my gallery collection.
I still have several pairs to add and I may get to it this weekend if time is available, it has been a rough couple of weeks without a home PC.

Dimensions that Fearn asked for are within the text.

http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/archive.html

Gav

katana · 22nd July 2009, 11:15 PM

Interesting....I've only known these as 'butterfly knives' ....used in several forms of martial arts weapons training. I've seen them used in Wing Chun training sessions and would be devastating in confined areas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke06luhv_nU

Regards David

Nathaniel · 23rd July 2009, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Interesting....I've only known these as 'butterfly knives' ....used in several forms of martial arts weapons training. I've seen them used in Wing Chun training sessions and would be devastating in confined areas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke06luhv_nU

Regards David

David, FYI another name in Chinese for these is:

Baat Cham Dao / Bat Chum Dao / Baat Jam Dao / Bart Cham Dao / Baat Jaam Dou = Eight-cutting knife

( Dao = knife and Jian = sword)

....I didn't see this term mentioned so I thought I would add it to the list

fearn · 23rd July 2009, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Most certainly,

There have been some good articles found in Harpers Weekly in the early 1900s that document this and other weapons of choice.

You will find some of these dao above and others within my gallery collection.
I still have several pairs to add and I may get to it this weekend if time is available, it has been a rough couple of weeks without a home PC.

Dimensions that Fearn asked for are within the text.

http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/archive.html

Gav

Appreciate the numbers, Gav. They're neat blades.

Best,

F

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2009, 01:48 AM

The 'butterfly knives' seem to have always been one of the more esoteric and intriguing Chinese weapons, probably from increased presence in China from the Taipai period, increased immigration of Chinese mid 19th century, and the Boxer Rebellion, and acquisition of these as souveniers.

It does not seem that authentic examples are often available, though the popularity of reproduction forms through interest in martial arts are often seen.

I believe these were primarily civilian weapons, used by martial artists and most definitely effective in the crowded city streets and dark alleys of southern China. Thier association with the 'river pirates' seems well placed as the focus of these well organized clans were profoundly present on the coastal areas of the south preying on junks as well as into the Yangtze River. It seems that they were quite present on Taiwan as well, as noted.
The hooked guard on these seems to derives from the sai, or trident like weapon, also a key martial arts weapon.
There are suggestions of military association due to the use of knuckleguard, and westernization of military in latter 19th century, but the guard is thought to have been intended more as a 'knuckleduster' and blades are often only sharpenened halfway.

I am not sure there was any significant presence of these as weapons used by the 'Tongs' in America. While these began as protective societies to protect against oppression of immigrant Chinese in rather unstable environments of American cities in those times, they later took on thier own enterprises, not always especially legal. These groups that had been known as Tongs (= hall, as in organized group) became a type of gangs, that by the early 20th century, many were known by the type of guns they carried.
The term 'hatchet man' came from the hit men who eliminated troublesome enemy figures. Weapons were of course not legally obtainable for these Chinese, and common utilitarian items such as axes were more likely used along with crudely fashioned traditional forms of knife or short swords.

It seems that in many forms of martial arts, the use of dual weapons is quite preferred, as it enables exaggerated and confounding movements that throw off the opponent. Knowing how fast these guys move, its hard enought to watch the moves of one arms let alone two! In India, the use of patas and katars by the Mahrattas uses windmill like slashing of two weapons is used.
The Boxers were well known for thier terrifying demonstrations used to demoralize the westerners there, using huge daos and certainly these paired knives.

Aboard the decks of a cramped ship, these manueverable weapons would be a deadly deterrent in a melee.

Absolutely fascinating pieces of Chinese history!!!

All best regards,
Jim

KuKulzA28 · 29th March 2009, 04:19 PM

That's fascinating...

I have very little idea what Southern Chinese used weaponry-wise...
now I know Hu-die-dao are among them

Thanks

It seems S.Chinese and the Hoklo people aren't ones whose martial arts and weaponry are spoken of often... but it is these people that spread to Taiwan and SE Asia. They brought their weapons, martial arts, blacksmithing skills, commerce, and ships to distant places. Why is kun-tao well-known down in the archipelago? Why was Taiwan's robber-hero a martial artist (according to legend)? Why did the Spanish fear the sino-populations in the Philippines even though the illustrious Chinese were very productive?

29th March 2009, 07:29 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Another image Another image off the net of a Street performer in America circa 1900. Attached Images

29th March 2009, 04:16 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Neat pieces, and an excellent collection, FB. I'd like to know the size on these pieces, if you have a chance. I know that the books on wing chun (one of the systems that uses the hudiedao) that they were thought to be monk's weapons, perhaps kept in riding boots. Personally, I put that in the same slot as capoeira being developed by slaves in the Brazilian plantations, but whatever. Of more interest, I recall seeing paired korean swords that were used by female guards of the emperor's harem. The idea was that they were somewhat smaller (for women) and good in enclosed spaces. I'm not arguing against your alley swords, but I wonder if they started in alleys, started as indoor weapons, or were just recognized as a good design that works well in confined spaces, whatever those are. Best, F

22nd July 2009, 04:30 AM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	bumping this thread in case anyone can add more info about the Hu-die-dao and also Guang-dong and Hoklo weaponry/fighting In USA, many of the "Tongs" (Chinese gangs) were known to use axes and "tommy-guns", would Hu-die-dao have been amongst their weapons?

22nd July 2009, 05:14 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Thanks for bumping this thread, as I missed it the first time around. I have always been keenly interested in the so-called "river pirate swords". I am assuming that the curved guard could be used like a bien, to parry or even break an opponent's sword? The back alleys and tight tea-houses of China would seem to be the obvious reasoning for these smaller bladed swords that often fit into one scabbard. They would have made ideal "pirate" swords in that they could also be used in the tight confines of a ship without stabbing a fellow shipmate in battle or becoming intangled in the rigging. This was the exact same reason smaller cutlass and hangers went to sea in the Western navies and merchantmen. Now I am NOT saying that I necessarily accept this as fact, but in more than one book on piracy circulating around, one can see one of these hu-die-daos (didn't know the name of it. Thanks, Gav) that was supposedly carried by one of Captain Kidd's crew. Of course, there was plenty of trading going on to support this. Likewise, pirates came from all walks of life (think of the whaling crews made up of Maori, Africans, Haitians, Polynesians, etc). Very interesting swords, none the less...

22nd July 2009, 11:15 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Interesting....I've only known these as 'butterfly knives' ....used in several forms of martial arts weapons training. I've seen them used in Wing Chun training sessions and would be devastating in confined areas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke06luhv_nU Regards David

23rd July 2009, 01:48 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,470	The 'butterfly knives' seem to have always been one of the more esoteric and intriguing Chinese weapons, probably from increased presence in China from the Taipai period, increased immigration of Chinese mid 19th century, and the Boxer Rebellion, and acquisition of these as souveniers. It does not seem that authentic examples are often available, though the popularity of reproduction forms through interest in martial arts are often seen. I believe these were primarily civilian weapons, used by martial artists and most definitely effective in the crowded city streets and dark alleys of southern China. Thier association with the 'river pirates' seems well placed as the focus of these well organized clans were profoundly present on the coastal areas of the south preying on junks as well as into the Yangtze River. It seems that they were quite present on Taiwan as well, as noted. The hooked guard on these seems to derives from the sai, or trident like weapon, also a key martial arts weapon. There are suggestions of military association due to the use of knuckleguard, and westernization of military in latter 19th century, but the guard is thought to have been intended more as a 'knuckleduster' and blades are often only sharpenened halfway. I am not sure there was any significant presence of these as weapons used by the 'Tongs' in America. While these began as protective societies to protect against oppression of immigrant Chinese in rather unstable environments of American cities in those times, they later took on thier own enterprises, not always especially legal. These groups that had been known as Tongs (= hall, as in organized group) became a type of gangs, that by the early 20th century, many were known by the type of guns they carried. The term 'hatchet man' came from the hit men who eliminated troublesome enemy figures. Weapons were of course not legally obtainable for these Chinese, and common utilitarian items such as axes were more likely used along with crudely fashioned traditional forms of knife or short swords. It seems that in many forms of martial arts, the use of dual weapons is quite preferred, as it enables exaggerated and confounding movements that throw off the opponent. Knowing how fast these guys move, its hard enought to watch the moves of one arms let alone two! In India, the use of patas and katars by the Mahrattas uses windmill like slashing of two weapons is used. The Boxers were well known for thier terrifying demonstrations used to demoralize the westerners there, using huge daos and certainly these paired knives. Aboard the decks of a cramped ship, these manueverable weapons would be a deadly deterrent in a melee. Absolutely fascinating pieces of Chinese history!!! All best regards, Jim

29th March 2009, 04:19 PM	#11
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	That's fascinating... I have very little idea what Southern Chinese used weaponry-wise... now I know Hu-die-dao are among them Thanks It seems S.Chinese and the Hoklo people aren't ones whose martial arts and weaponry are spoken of often... but it is these people that spread to Taiwan and SE Asia. They brought their weapons, martial arts, blacksmithing skills, commerce, and ships to distant places. Why is kun-tao well-known down in the archipelago? Why was Taiwan's robber-hero a martial artist (according to legend)? Why did the Spanish fear the sino-populations in the Philippines even though the illustrious Chinese were very productive?