Filipino swords and axes in the 13th Century?

migueldiaz · 21st March 2009, 03:05 AM

Here's one more pic from Scott's Barangay.

The text describing the image says:

"Tree houses were occupied only in time of war, built either in actual trees 15 or more meters above the ground, or on tall posts. If they were intended only for male warriors, they were reached simply by a vine which could be pulled up; but if a whole family occupied them, they were full-scale dwellings with a platform midway up reached by a removable ladder, with a second ladder up to the house itself. (See fig. 5.) They all disappeared after the Spanish pacification ...."

From the image we can obviously discern the form of the prehispanic Filipinos' spearheads, sword hilt and pommel, as well as shield types.

migueldiaz · 21st March 2009, 03:11 AM

By the way, that low stance of the warrior on the right (the one with the round shield) is curious.

Moro warriors are also known to use that stance often. Please see the clips below from Cecil Quirino's documentary, Crossing the Sulu Seas.

David · 21st March 2009, 04:14 AM

Great info everyone. Nice digging Miguel.

Too bad we can't see the blades on those swords with the "Y" shaped hilts. Of course these illustrations are about 300 years past the time Steven is look for and i guess quite a bite can change in that amount of time, but it is at least something to go on.

Jim McDougall · 21st March 2009, 05:31 AM

Fantastic work Miguel!!!! Now that is research... with excellent overview, resources and great suggestions. I think this will present some great perspective for Steven's project, and I would think he would be able to use this overview for a benchmark to direct toward whatever his project entails.

I think the hardest questions to respond to are those which present intriguing topics, but are actually broader than they seem. To answer concisely, there are often many factors and variables that confound accuracy, as can be seen by the volume of detail required. Although the question on specific weapons in a specific period and region seems simple enough, the study of ethnographic weapons, or any of its aspects, is never that defined, as well pointed out by the excellent responses here. Nicely handled !

Thanks for the great information and interesting info guys!!
My background on Phillipines history is pretty limited, so I appreciate the information here to follow up on as well.

All best regards,
Jim

Nonoy Tan · 21st March 2009, 06:16 AM

Hi Steve,

I believe that we may be able to get an idea of the form and design of weapons by looking at those used by peoples in the Philippines that were least influenced by "civilization." Their weapons may have not changed much over many centuries, except for the gradual increase in the use of metal (obtained from the Chinese traders, etc.). Spears with metal points became more in use as trade increased, but the design remained. These were to replace (but not fully) those made from wood, bamboo or stone. The same is the case with bamboo/wooden arrows, which later had their metal counterparts. Spears and arrows are found everywhere in the Philippine islands - even in places where there was no apparent outside influence (Chinese, Japanese, Arab, etc). Stone adzes/axes may have also taken the same transformation. I can post some pics of arrows if you are interested in weaponry apart from swords and axes. I am reminded too of the Tasaday people which you might want to look into as well.

Meanwhile, some islands which had trade contact with borneo and sumatra and/or inhabited by explorers/immigrants from the same brought with them their weapons. Thus, researching the weaponry in these places during the 13th century will provide some clues. However, whether or not one would regard these weapons as "Filipino" is debatable and there are valid points on both sides of the argument. As mentioned earlier, there was no such place called "Philippines" in the 13th century. It would help to consider the Philippines as a part of the larger austronesian group and thus IMHO good to look at the austronesian weaponry for clues.

I hope i can provide more specific information. Unfortunately, I do not have access to my source materials at this time as I am traveling until May 2009. I can look into the matter if you are willing to wait.

Nonoy Tan · 21st March 2009, 06:39 AM

Hi Miguel,

I will be back home (Manila) in May 2009. Shall we meet up again?

Nonoy

wilked aka Khun Deng · 21st March 2009, 07:15 AM

Steve not too much to add to the excellent info Miguel has supplied other than the second question you had about Muslim convert tribes in the 13th century. Islamic missionaries are not recognized as having reached Mindanao (Sulu specifically) until late in the 14th century.

One other point of interest. Several years back as I went through the National Museum there in Manila, they had an exhibit that tracked all the historical trade routes from the different trade eras. What struck me was that the only two ports that every era (Chinese, Arabic/Southeast Asian and Spanish) had in common were Cotabato and Jolo City (I would have thought Manila would also be a constant but it wasn't).

Dan

migueldiaz · 21st March 2009, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilked aka Khun Deng

Steve not too much to add to the excellent info Miguel has supplied other than the second question you had about Muslim convert tribes in the 13th century. Islamic missionaries are not recognized as having reached Mindanao (Sulu specifically) until late in the 14th century.

One other point of interest. Several years back as I went through the National Museum there in Manila, they had an exhibit that tracked all the historical trade routes from the different trade eras. What struck me was that the only two ports that every era (Chinese, Arabic/Southeast Asian and Spanish) had in common were Cotabato and Jolo City (I would have thought Manila would also be a constant but it wasn't).

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your comments.

Browsing the forum archives, I have read your earlier posts with great interest. It's good that you can write again.

Next time you're back in Manila, please drop me a note beforehand. If it's ok with you, I'll take care of the beverage and you take care of the stories

and I'll be all ears

On which Philippine ports were most active then (prehispanic), yes Sulu would be it. And then next in line would be Cebu and Manila, but I'm not sure which is busier between these other two. Mindoro for a while was a trading center, too, according to Ms. Beyer's article above.

migueldiaz · 21st March 2009, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fantastic work Miguel!!!! Now that is research... with excellent overview, resources and great suggestions. I think this will present some great perspective for Steven's project, and I would think he would be able to use this overview for a benchmark to direct toward whatever his project entails.

Hi Jim,

That query posted by Steven sure is intriguing, if that's the right word. Let's see where this will all take us ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

Hi Miguel, I will be back home (Manila) in May 2009. Shall we meet up again?

I'd love to do that, Nonoy. Perhaps at the Ayala Museum again where we can take a second look at those 10th to 12th century Philippine gold artifacts?

Too bad they don't allow taking pics. But I'm planning to bring a sketch pad this time!

migueldiaz · 21st March 2009, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Great info everyone. Nice digging Miguel.

Too bad we can't see the blades on those swords with the "Y" shaped hilts. Of course these illustrations are about 300 years past the time Steven is look for and i guess quite a bite can change in that amount of time, but it is at least something to go on.

Hi David,

Yes, the time period specified by Steven is indeed problematic. In fact, the easy answer is "there's little or no data, so next question, please!".

But we can always extrapolate (use 16th-century-and-later data, and project them backward into 13th cent.), or interpolate (use pre-13th-cent. and post-13th-cent. data and "connect the dots").

Below is a chart I just made, to illustrate the extrapolation and interpolation thingy ...

21st March 2009, 03:05 AM	#1
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Here's one more pic from Scott's Barangay. The text describing the image says: "Tree houses were occupied only in time of war, built either in actual trees 15 or more meters above the ground, or on tall posts. If they were intended only for male warriors, they were reached simply by a vine which could be pulled up; but if a whole family occupied them, they were full-scale dwellings with a platform midway up reached by a removable ladder, with a second ladder up to the house itself. (See fig. 5.) They all disappeared after the Spanish pacification ...." From the image we can obviously discern the form of the prehispanic Filipinos' spearheads, sword hilt and pommel, as well as shield types. Attached Images

21st March 2009, 03:11 AM	#2
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	By the way, that low stance of the warrior on the right (the one with the round shield) is curious. Moro warriors are also known to use that stance often. Please see the clips below from Cecil Quirino's documentary, Crossing the Sulu Seas. Attached Images

21st March 2009, 04:14 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Great info everyone. Nice digging Miguel. Too bad we can't see the blades on those swords with the "Y" shaped hilts. Of course these illustrations are about 300 years past the time Steven is look for and i guess quite a bite can change in that amount of time, but it is at least something to go on.

21st March 2009, 05:31 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Fantastic work Miguel!!!! Now that is research... with excellent overview, resources and great suggestions. I think this will present some great perspective for Steven's project, and I would think he would be able to use this overview for a benchmark to direct toward whatever his project entails. I think the hardest questions to respond to are those which present intriguing topics, but are actually broader than they seem. To answer concisely, there are often many factors and variables that confound accuracy, as can be seen by the volume of detail required. Although the question on specific weapons in a specific period and region seems simple enough, the study of ethnographic weapons, or any of its aspects, is never that defined, as well pointed out by the excellent responses here. Nicely handled ! Thanks for the great information and interesting info guys!! My background on Phillipines history is pretty limited, so I appreciate the information here to follow up on as well. All best regards, Jim

21st March 2009, 06:16 AM	#5
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Hi Steve, I believe that we may be able to get an idea of the form and design of weapons by looking at those used by peoples in the Philippines that were least influenced by "civilization." Their weapons may have not changed much over many centuries, except for the gradual increase in the use of metal (obtained from the Chinese traders, etc.). Spears with metal points became more in use as trade increased, but the design remained. These were to replace (but not fully) those made from wood, bamboo or stone. The same is the case with bamboo/wooden arrows, which later had their metal counterparts. Spears and arrows are found everywhere in the Philippine islands - even in places where there was no apparent outside influence (Chinese, Japanese, Arab, etc). Stone adzes/axes may have also taken the same transformation. I can post some pics of arrows if you are interested in weaponry apart from swords and axes. I am reminded too of the Tasaday people which you might want to look into as well. Meanwhile, some islands which had trade contact with borneo and sumatra and/or inhabited by explorers/immigrants from the same brought with them their weapons. Thus, researching the weaponry in these places during the 13th century will provide some clues. However, whether or not one would regard these weapons as "Filipino" is debatable and there are valid points on both sides of the argument. As mentioned earlier, there was no such place called "Philippines" in the 13th century. It would help to consider the Philippines as a part of the larger austronesian group and thus IMHO good to look at the austronesian weaponry for clues. I hope i can provide more specific information. Unfortunately, I do not have access to my source materials at this time as I am traveling until May 2009. I can look into the matter if you are willing to wait.

21st March 2009, 06:39 AM	#6
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Hi Miguel, I will be back home (Manila) in May 2009. Shall we meet up again? Nonoy

21st March 2009, 07:15 AM	#7
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Steve not too much to add to the excellent info Miguel has supplied other than the second question you had about Muslim convert tribes in the 13th century. Islamic missionaries are not recognized as having reached Mindanao (Sulu specifically) until late in the 14th century. One other point of interest. Several years back as I went through the National Museum there in Manila, they had an exhibit that tracked all the historical trade routes from the different trade eras. What struck me was that the only two ports that every era (Chinese, Arabic/Southeast Asian and Spanish) had in common were Cotabato and Jolo City (I would have thought Manila would also be a constant but it wasn't). Dan