Filipino swords and axes in the 13th Century?

Steven C. · 20th March 2009, 09:11 AM

Alright, thanks thats slightly helpful, but I still need to know what swords were used during the 13th century, not what weren't.

David · 20th March 2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven C.

Alright, thanks thats slightly helpful, but I still need to know what swords were used during the 13th century, not what weren't.

Well, glad that i could be "slightly helpful" Steven.

If i could be of further "slight" help i would also suggest that the kampilan, at least the weapon he know by that name, also did not exist in the 13th century. Though it has been suggested that Magellan was killed with a kamp at the battle of Mactan in 1521 there is much debate and really no proof of what weapon he was finally dispatched with. AFAIK there are no examples in either museums or private collects that are nearly this old. Without examples that have any provenance it is very difficult to prove anything.
While i truly sympathize with your "need to know" i am afraid that not all details of the past are all that cut and dry. Much is just plain lost forever.
BTW, it is generally accepted that Islam reached the Philippines at the end of the 14th century.

fernando · 20th March 2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven C.

Alright, thanks thats slightly helpful, but I still need to know what swords were used during the 13th century, not what weren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, glad that i could be "slightly helpful" Steven. .

When i grow up, i want to react to people's good will in such manner and still get such a diplomatic second answer.
Bless you David.

Fernando

Nonoy Tan · 20th March 2009, 05:35 PM

Hi Fernando,

I agree with David.

IMHO, there is no one answer to your question "what swords and axes were used by Filipino wars during the 13th century, contemporary with the Song Dynasty."

It is my belief that that different geographical locations in the Philippines (as we know it now) were in different "levels of advancement" in terms of weaponry - some has access to metal and metal working technology, while others did not. Thus, to answer your question.... you may have to be specific which part of the current Philippines you are referring to (since there is no such "Philippines" state during the 13th century bur rather independent "villages" or "village alliances").

fernando · 20th March 2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

...Hi Fernando ...

Wrong name?

Nonoy Tan · 20th March 2009, 06:20 PM

As far as I know (I could be wrong though), there are no written records of weaponry from the 13th century. On the other hand, ancient Chinese records (of which may remain undisclosed or untranslated to this date) may in the future provide clues or answers. Unless, you may want to go this route which will require significant resources/money (i.e. gaining access and translating ancient records in China which may or may not guarantee answers), then the second alternative may have to be archaeology... of which there are limited materials. As a start, you may want to research on Palawan and Cagayan archaeology, Beyer papers on ancient Philippine-China relations, archeological findings and opinions by Robert Fox ... My 2 cents. I hope this helps.

VANDOO · 20th March 2009, 07:29 PM

BOTH THE KINGDOM OF NAMAYAN AND TONDO NEAR THE PASIG RIVER ON LUZON WERE ESTABLISHED AND IMPORTANT TRADE CENTERS LONG BEFORE AND DURING THE PERIOD YOU ARE INTERESTED IN.TRADE WAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED DURING THE TANG AND SONG DYNASTIES OF CHINA. MANY CHINESE IMMIGRATES CAME TO LIVE IN THE PHILIPPINES DURING THE MING DYNASTY CIRC. 1373. TRADERS FROM INDIA, THE ARAB COUNTRYS AND SIAM ALSO CAME THERE TO TRADE.
THE PORT OF SANFOTSI WAS A CENTER FOR TRADE IN THAT GEOGRAPHIC AREA. I KNOW OF NO WRITTEN ACCOUNTS DESCRIBING WHAT KIND OF WEAPONS THE NATIVE PHILIPPINO USED AT THAT TIME BUT IT WAS LIKELY SOMETHING THEY TRADED FOR FROM THE CHINESE OR ONE OF THE OTHER COUNTRYS THAT TRADED THERE. RELIGION MAY HAVE PLAYED SOME PART IN IT ALSO IF THEY WERE AFFILIATED WITH HINDU PERHAPS INDIAN OR MALAYSIAN WEAPON FORMS. IF BUDDIST PERHAPS CHINESE FORMS OF WEAPONS. THERE WAS MENTION THAT THE LOCALS WERE FEARLESS FIGHTERS BUT UNFORTUNATELY NO DESCRIPTIONS OF WEAPONS OR STRATEGY.
THE IDEA OF TRANSLATEING ANCIENT CHINESE RECORDS AND SEEING WHAT HAS BEEN FOUND IN ARCHEOLOGICAL DIGS IN THE AREA ARE BOTH GOOD IDEAS. IT IS TOO BAD ANCIENT POTTERY FROM THIS AREA ARE NOT AS OBLIGING WITH DECOUR SHOWING WARRIORS AND WEAPONS AND COSTUMES AND GODS AS THE GREEKS AND MAYA AMONG OTHERS DID. GOOD LUCK

20th March 2009, 09:11 AM	#1
Steven C. Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Port Richey, Florida Posts: 20	Alright, thanks thats slightly helpful, but I still need to know what swords were used during the 13th century, not what weren't.

20th March 2009, 05:35 PM	#4
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Hi Fernando, I agree with David. IMHO, there is no one answer to your question "what swords and axes were used by Filipino wars during the 13th century, contemporary with the Song Dynasty." It is my belief that that different geographical locations in the Philippines (as we know it now) were in different "levels of advancement" in terms of weaponry - some has access to metal and metal working technology, while others did not. Thus, to answer your question.... you may have to be specific which part of the current Philippines you are referring to (since there is no such "Philippines" state during the 13th century bur rather independent "villages" or "village alliances").

20th March 2009, 06:20 PM	#6
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	As far as I know (I could be wrong though), there are no written records of weaponry from the 13th century. On the other hand, ancient Chinese records (of which may remain undisclosed or untranslated to this date) may in the future provide clues or answers. Unless, you may want to go this route which will require significant resources/money (i.e. gaining access and translating ancient records in China which may or may not guarantee answers), then the second alternative may have to be archaeology... of which there are limited materials. As a start, you may want to research on Palawan and Cagayan archaeology, Beyer papers on ancient Philippine-China relations, archeological findings and opinions by Robert Fox ... My 2 cents. I hope this helps.

20th March 2009, 07:29 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	BOTH THE KINGDOM OF NAMAYAN AND TONDO NEAR THE PASIG RIVER ON LUZON WERE ESTABLISHED AND IMPORTANT TRADE CENTERS LONG BEFORE AND DURING THE PERIOD YOU ARE INTERESTED IN.TRADE WAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED DURING THE TANG AND SONG DYNASTIES OF CHINA. MANY CHINESE IMMIGRATES CAME TO LIVE IN THE PHILIPPINES DURING THE MING DYNASTY CIRC. 1373. TRADERS FROM INDIA, THE ARAB COUNTRYS AND SIAM ALSO CAME THERE TO TRADE. THE PORT OF SANFOTSI WAS A CENTER FOR TRADE IN THAT GEOGRAPHIC AREA. I KNOW OF NO WRITTEN ACCOUNTS DESCRIBING WHAT KIND OF WEAPONS THE NATIVE PHILIPPINO USED AT THAT TIME BUT IT WAS LIKELY SOMETHING THEY TRADED FOR FROM THE CHINESE OR ONE OF THE OTHER COUNTRYS THAT TRADED THERE. RELIGION MAY HAVE PLAYED SOME PART IN IT ALSO IF THEY WERE AFFILIATED WITH HINDU PERHAPS INDIAN OR MALAYSIAN WEAPON FORMS. IF BUDDIST PERHAPS CHINESE FORMS OF WEAPONS. THERE WAS MENTION THAT THE LOCALS WERE FEARLESS FIGHTERS BUT UNFORTUNATELY NO DESCRIPTIONS OF WEAPONS OR STRATEGY. THE IDEA OF TRANSLATEING ANCIENT CHINESE RECORDS AND SEEING WHAT HAS BEEN FOUND IN ARCHEOLOGICAL DIGS IN THE AREA ARE BOTH GOOD IDEAS. IT IS TOO BAD ANCIENT POTTERY FROM THIS AREA ARE NOT AS OBLIGING WITH DECOUR SHOWING WARRIORS AND WEAPONS AND COSTUMES AND GODS AS THE GREEKS AND MAYA AMONG OTHERS DID. GOOD LUCK