16th/17th century chain shot

Matchlock · 25th February 2009, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks Michael for posting that pic from the web. You are a better web-searcher than I am, because I haven't been able to find many pics of chain or bar-shot.

Steve, I have also wondered that same question many times. It would seem the force of the blast would have broken these relatively delicate-looking chains. Perhaps the chains were wrapped in protective material that would come apart in flight? Or perhaps the charge used wasn't as powerful due to it being more of a close-range shot? I have heard that hot shot was fired using low charge so that the ball would embed into the decking and burn rather than shoot right through. Comments about this, anyone? Anyway,check out the following link about what I mentioned concerning the anti-personnel chain shot. Rather interesting, if ineffective

www.batteryb.com/double-barreled_cannon.html

Thanks a lot, Mark, for pointing out that side by side double barrel 19th century Greek cannon for firing chain shot. I remember seeing similar 400 year old samples and will search to post them to enable sort of a synopsis of special artillery thru the centuries.

Michael

Matchlock · 25th February 2009, 08:19 PM

Various chain shot, all from Dudley Pope's highly recommendable book Guns, 1965.

Michael

fernando · 25th February 2009, 09:09 PM

Michael, you have made my day

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Various chain shot, all from Dudley Pope's highly recommendable book Guns, 1965.
Michael

I've got that one; the French edition ... nobody's perfect

.
Having a book recommended by you is an added value

.
Fernando

Matchlock · 25th February 2009, 09:18 PM

Thanks a lot, Fernando, that praise of yours does me so good.

I got the German version.

Michael

M ELEY · 28th February 2009, 03:30 AM

Jim,
thanks for replying and seconding the theory of a lower powder charge for the chainshot to achieve its goal. It seems to make sense that it was used this way. Either way, it was a horrible projectile if you got in its way. One of the English admirals was cut in half by a french chainshot during one of their many naval battles back in the 17th century.

Michael,
Thank you so much for posting these amazing pics. Although I'm not much into munitions, I've always been fascinated in these 'specialty' shots for taking out rigging (and personnel). I've seen sketches of the above shot, but never the real pics. Fernando is right. I've got to ge me a copy of that Dudley Pope book! Thanks again!
-Mark

Jim McDougall · 28th February 2009, 05:02 AM

Thanks Mark,
It has always seemed so interesting to me that there could be such force in low velocity dynamics concerning ballistics. To think that a projectile moving at a speed where it could easily be seen could have the ability to inflict such gruesome effect.
In combat between ships it seems that just before boarding, a volley was often fired to create confusion on deck, so lesser charge would be needed with the vessels closing. This shot would bring down rigging etc. to add to the confusion. ....at least thats what my pirate manual says

but then them's just guidelines, right?

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 28th February 2009, 09:29 AM

'Pirate manual', aye? I always knew you were a true scalawag, Jim!

I was wondering if anyone with knowlegde of munitions has any concrete stories or historical references to portable coehorn cannons being taken to sea. In Gilkerson's 'Borders Away II', he seems to discourage the idea that a short-range portable mortar that fired an anti-personnel shell that dispersed grapeshot had much use in naval battles. Yet, many books mention coehorns and mention their use. True, it might have been a limited bombardment with two ships near each other and one basically lobbing shells onto the others' deck. Let's face it, the whole purpose of the 'fighting tops' was to kill as many of the enemy sailors on their decks as bullets would allow. Likewise, thrown grenadoes had the same effect. So why not a coehorn shell? Gilkerson says (I'm quoting from memory, so I might be wrong) that the fire produced from the blast could have set fire to the rigging, but this explanation seems weak, considering the use of swival guns, which also produced flame. Perhaps it was the unpredictability of the scattering of grape? With the swivals and cannon, the shot would have been directed directly at the enemy ship, whereas the lobbed coehorn shell came down and exploded, sending projectiles in every direction. Thoughts, anyone?

Matchlock · 27th February 2012, 05:34 PM

For more on grape shot and canister shot, please see my thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post134755

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 25th April 2012, 04:02 PM

For more on quilted shot, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...225#post138225

fernando · 28th February 2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... I've seen sketches of the above shot, but never the real pics...

I've seen at least a real one in 'person', in the Oporto Military museum; just don't know how old it was

.
Fernando

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M ELEY · 2nd March 2009, 05:10 AM

Bump. Anyone comments on coehorns at sea?

More shot...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Di...balls_Vasa.jpg

25th February 2009, 08:19 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Various chain shot, all from Dudley Pope's highly recommendable book Guns, 1965. Michael Attached Images

25th February 2009, 09:18 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thanks a lot, Fernando, that praise of yours does me so good. I got the German version. Michael

28th February 2009, 03:30 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,205	Jim, thanks for replying and seconding the theory of a lower powder charge for the chainshot to achieve its goal. It seems to make sense that it was used this way. Either way, it was a horrible projectile if you got in its way. One of the English admirals was cut in half by a french chainshot during one of their many naval battles back in the 17th century. Michael, Thank you so much for posting these amazing pics. Although I'm not much into munitions, I've always been fascinated in these 'specialty' shots for taking out rigging (and personnel). I've seen sketches of the above shot, but never the real pics. Fernando is right. I've got to ge me a copy of that Dudley Pope book! Thanks again! -Mark

28th February 2009, 05:02 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Thanks Mark, It has always seemed so interesting to me that there could be such force in low velocity dynamics concerning ballistics. To think that a projectile moving at a speed where it could easily be seen could have the ability to inflict such gruesome effect. In combat between ships it seems that just before boarding, a volley was often fired to create confusion on deck, so lesser charge would be needed with the vessels closing. This shot would bring down rigging etc. to add to the confusion. ....at least thats what my pirate manual says but then them's just guidelines, right? All the best, Jim

28th February 2009, 09:29 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,205	'Pirate manual', aye? I always knew you were a true scalawag, Jim! I was wondering if anyone with knowlegde of munitions has any concrete stories or historical references to portable coehorn cannons being taken to sea. In Gilkerson's 'Borders Away II', he seems to discourage the idea that a short-range portable mortar that fired an anti-personnel shell that dispersed grapeshot had much use in naval battles. Yet, many books mention coehorns and mention their use. True, it might have been a limited bombardment with two ships near each other and one basically lobbing shells onto the others' deck. Let's face it, the whole purpose of the 'fighting tops' was to kill as many of the enemy sailors on their decks as bullets would allow. Likewise, thrown grenadoes had the same effect. So why not a coehorn shell? Gilkerson says (I'm quoting from memory, so I might be wrong) that the fire produced from the blast could have set fire to the rigging, but this explanation seems weak, considering the use of swival guns, which also produced flame. Perhaps it was the unpredictability of the scattering of grape? With the swivals and cannon, the shot would have been directed directly at the enemy ship, whereas the lobbed coehorn shell came down and exploded, sending projectiles in every direction. Thoughts, anyone?

27th February 2012, 05:34 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	For more on grape shot and canister shot, please see my thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post134755 Best, Michael

25th April 2012, 04:02 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	For more on quilted shot, please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...225#post138225

2nd March 2009, 05:10 AM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,205	Bump. Anyone comments on coehorns at sea? More shot... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Di...balls_Vasa.jpg