A Rare 9th-12th Century Saber

Matchlock · 19th February 2009, 06:41 PM

Sold at Christie's, Dec 17, 2008. It failed to sell.

Michael

TVV · 19th February 2009, 07:17 PM

The Russuan! or Magyar attributions is based on?

Matchlock · 19th February 2009, 08:41 PM

Definitely East European influence, anyway, TVV.

Michael

TVV · 19th February 2009, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Definitely East European influence, anyway, TVV.

Michael

Agree, but I was just curious, as it could have belonged to a variety of other ethnic groups from the Early Middle Ages. I could not see any reference to the location where this sword was found and wondered if it was known and if there were any reasons for the Magyar or Russian attribution.
Regards,
Teodor

kronckew · 19th February 2009, 10:35 PM

looks familiar.

mines not been excavated tho

(9c magyar sabre repro)

katana · 19th February 2009, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

looks familiar.

mines not been excavated tho

(9c magyar sabre repro)

Ah, a repro.....or are you hiding the fact you have access to a 'time machine'.....

Regards David

kronckew · 19th February 2009, 11:38 PM

ssshhh!

my tardis is double parked and i don't want anyone looking for it, them time clampers are murder.

TVV · 19th February 2009, 11:40 PM

Kronck, to me the blades appear different. The blade on your nice replica seems to be a little more curved and shorter, and the blade on the auction sword to me seems longer and pretty much straight. If so, it could be earlier than what it is dated, and I have seen such blades attributed to the Avars and Bulgars, prior to the Magyar arrival. I guess the Khazars used them as well.
Also, I see the little brass habachi-like element at the ricasso, the function of which I remember was subject to some debate.
Or it is possible that I am not seeing it correctly - it happens to everyone.
Regards,
Teodor

broadaxe · 20th February 2009, 04:30 PM

Such sabers have been found in excavations in Hungary by certain amounts and can be seen in museums, like the pair in the following photo (taken at the Hussar museum, Eger). However, the habaki-like part shows a connection, if by influence only, to Chinese sabers and should be researched.

TVV · 20th February 2009, 05:46 PM

Here are some examples of Avar swords, and from the photography I guess these were taken from former Hermann Historica auctions:

As for the habaki-like part, I am not certain whether it was taken from the Chinese or if the Chinese took it from their steppe neighbors.
Regards,
Teodor

katana · 20th February 2009, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

ssshhh!

my tardis is double parked and i don't want anyone looking for it, them time clampers are murder.

......'time cops' are just as bad.....caught 'timing'.......874 years an hour...

Had gone back for the sword belonging to Spartacus.....when I arrived I confronted Sparticas's army and cried 'which one of you is Spartacus ?' .....a chorus of hundreds of voices said 'I am'

....never did get the sword

I am beginning to think a number of Chinese sword sellers have time machines.....judging by the way their antiques look quite new ....perhaps they haven't realised that carrying old swords through the space/time continuum does not age them

All the best
David

katana · 20th February 2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

As for the habaki-like part, I am not certain whether it was taken from the Chinese or if the Chinese took it from their steppe neighbors.
Regards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,
with no references to refer to ....I would think , that with the advanced sword making technology that China poccessed (which later travelled to Japan), it is extremely likely that the steppe tribes adopted the habaki-like componant.

Does anyone know if a habaki-like part were used on bronze bladed swords ....(those with a seperate hilt) ?

Regards David

ward · 20th February 2009, 08:29 PM

These swords are massive in hand. I know Oliver Pinchot is about to publish something on this but no details yet.
The pommel on the sword in the top pic is replaced, maybe that is why it didn't sell.
I think the research shows the collar at the forte on these originated in Middle Asia and then traveled east.

TVV · 20th February 2009, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Teodor,
with no references to refer to ....I would think , that with the advanced sword making technology that China poccessed (which later travelled to Japan), it is extremely likely that the steppe tribes adopted the habaki-like componant.

Does anyone know if a habaki-like part were used on bronze bladed swords ....(those with a seperate hilt) ?

Regards David

Interesting argument David,
And I think the answer lies in figuring out the purpose of this element.
Some sugegst is helps the sword fit tighter into the scabbard and stops moisture from enetring inside the scabbard. Maybe true, but then why is it always longer on the edge side?
Another explanation has to do with the need to place the thumb and forefinger over the guard for a better grip when an archery ring is worn. However, people who practice fencing tell me that the archery ring really does not make much of a difference to a normal grip, but then again, who knows what was the traditional grip back then. If this version is correct, then the element would have originated from the style of warfare in the steppes, and thus it would be a steppe innovation and not a Chinese one.
In any case, we should be careful not to fall victim about preconceived notions about Chinese superiority, especially when one considers that the sabre was a steppe innovation, which reached China through contact with its Northern and Western neighbors,a nd not vice versa.
Regards,
Teodor

kronckew · 21st February 2009, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Kronck, to me the blades appear different. The blade on your nice replica seems to be a little more curved and shorter,...

mine has a 29.5 in. blade as opposed to the others 30 1/8", well spotted, that extra 5/8 in. makes all the difference

. oddly enough, mine varies from straight also by 5/8 in. in the centre of the blade. it's definitely magyar tho. (the smith is a magyar

) just made a bit later than the one in post #1. no sweated on edge thingy tho.

looks a bit longer in this photo:

it's all in the angles.

p.s. - the thumb ring for me at least is more comfortable with the finger behind the sword guard rather than in front. shown here on a 15c magyar sabre repro, it's even more uncomfortable on the 9c one with it's thicker bronze guard.

TVV · 21st February 2009, 04:07 AM

Thanks Krock, the angle was fooling me, although to me it still appears that your sabre is curved and the auction sword is straight. From what I have read, the earliest sabres in Europe are attributed to the Avars based on a find in Zillingthal, nowadays Austria, dated to the Early Avar period (late 6th, early 7th century). Of course, dating can be subject to debate, but the graves certainly predate the Magyar arrival.
Overall, it can be really difficult to differentiate between the various steppe peoples in Eurasia from the 6th to the 10th century when it comes to swords.

kronckew · 21st February 2009, 10:17 AM

drawing a line across the top of the christie photo shows their 'slight curve' to be a bit less than mine, near enough straight.

i had a look at christies site for sale 5427 in london on 17DEC08 and did not see it in there, wonder what the lot no. was. there were a large no. of arms and armour in that sale no. some nice pieces.

Linky to christie's site for past sale 5427

Matchlock · 21st February 2009, 04:03 PM

Hi Kronckew,

As I wrote in the first line of my post the saber failed to sell so it does not show up in the revised version of the online catalog which comprises only sold pieces.

The lot no. was 131 and it is of course still there in my copy of the printed calalog.

Michael

kronckew · 21st February 2009, 04:12 PM

thanx for the larger sized pics which was what i was hoping to find. re the reason it was missing being it's lack of sale, i suspected that may be the case but was not sure.

Matchlock · 22nd February 2009, 06:57 PM

Another 9th century East European saber retaining its scabbard, preserved in the Profane Treasury Vienna. Although this had been attributed to such historic persons like Charlemagne or Attila by the romanticism of the 19th century these trials have been renounced of ever since.

Michael

Matchlock · 22nd February 2009, 07:02 PM

Once more, now without the distortion of the blade.

TVV · 22nd February 2009, 08:30 PM

Thank you Michael, this is a lovely sword, exceptionally well preserved and I doubt there is any doubt that it is Magyar indeed. I was able to see it in the Hofburg trasury early this year and tried to take pictures, but since using flash is forbidden, they did not come out too well.

Matchlock · 22nd February 2009, 08:40 PM

Thanks for this color pic, Teodor. It is quite good despite the low light in the Vienna museum.

Michael

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2009, 05:56 PM

This really is a great discussion on these early forms of sabre from these periods and regions. I have seen the 'Charlemagne' sword illustrated and discussed many times, and it had always seemed singular to me until I began seeing examples similar such as those shown here. Like so many other swords in museums with such distinguished attributions, it seems quite lavishly 'dressed' suggesting considerable 'maintainance and care' over the years.

I have always been intrigued by the blade collar as well, whether the 'habaki' (Japanese) or 'tunkou' (Chinese) and how they must have been intended from a practical sense. They seem to be consistant of course on the varying sabre types of the steppes, and I always wondered about the more decorative use of these on yataghans and the association. Once again it is interesting to see the vestigial applications of certain sword elements that no longer serve in thier intended use, but are there just the same......kinda like the portholes from the old Buicks placed stylistically on newer models.

Best regards,
Jim

20th February 2009, 04:30 PM	#9
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Such sabers have been found in excavations in Hungary by certain amounts and can be seen in museums, like the pair in the following photo (taken at the Hussar museum, Eger). However, the habaki-like part shows a connection, if by influence only, to Chinese sabers and should be researched. Attached Images

21st February 2009, 04:07 AM	#16
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Thanks Krock, the angle was fooling me, although to me it still appears that your sabre is curved and the auction sword is straight. From what I have read, the earliest sabres in Europe are attributed to the Avars based on a find in Zillingthal, nowadays Austria, dated to the Early Avar period (late 6th, early 7th century). Of course, dating can be subject to debate, but the graves certainly predate the Magyar arrival. Overall, it can be really difficult to differentiate between the various steppe peoples in Eurasia from the 6th to the 10th century when it comes to swords. Attached Images

21st February 2009, 10:17 AM	#17
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	drawing a line across the top of the christie photo shows their 'slight curve' to be a bit less than mine, near enough straight. i had a look at christies site for sale 5427 in london on 17DEC08 and did not see it in there, wonder what the lot no. was. there were a large no. of arms and armour in that sale no. some nice pieces. Linky to christie's site for past sale 5427 Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 21st February 2009 at 04:13 PM. Reason: better picture posted later

21st February 2009, 04:03 PM	#18
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Kronckew, As I wrote in the first line of my post the saber failed to sell so it does not show up in the revised version of the online catalog which comprises only sold pieces. The lot no. was 131 and it is of course still there in my copy of the printed calalog. Michael Attached Images

22nd February 2009, 06:57 PM	#20
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Another 9th century East European saber retaining its scabbard, preserved in the Profane Treasury Vienna. Although this had been attributed to such historic persons like Charlemagne or Attila by the romanticism of the 19th century these trials have been renounced of ever since. Michael Attached Images

19th February 2009, 06:41 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Rare 9th-12th Century Saber Sold at Christie's, Dec 17, 2008. It failed to sell. Michael Attached Images

19th February 2009, 07:17 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	The Russuan! or Magyar attributions is based on?

19th February 2009, 08:41 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Definitely East European influence, anyway, TVV. Michael

19th February 2009, 10:35 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	looks familiar. mines not been excavated tho (9c magyar sabre repro)

19th February 2009, 11:38 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	ssshhh! my tardis is double parked and i don't want anyone looking for it, them time clampers are murder.

19th February 2009, 11:40 PM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Kronck, to me the blades appear different. The blade on your nice replica seems to be a little more curved and shorter, and the blade on the auction sword to me seems longer and pretty much straight. If so, it could be earlier than what it is dated, and I have seen such blades attributed to the Avars and Bulgars, prior to the Magyar arrival. I guess the Khazars used them as well. Also, I see the little brass habachi-like element at the ricasso, the function of which I remember was subject to some debate. Or it is possible that I am not seeing it correctly - it happens to everyone. Regards, Teodor

20th February 2009, 05:46 PM	#10
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Here are some examples of Avar swords, and from the photography I guess these were taken from former Hermann Historica auctions: As for the habaki-like part, I am not certain whether it was taken from the Chinese or if the Chinese took it from their steppe neighbors. Regards, Teodor

20th February 2009, 08:29 PM	#13
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	These swords are massive in hand. I know Oliver Pinchot is about to publish something on this but no details yet. The pommel on the sword in the top pic is replaced, maybe that is why it didn't sell. I think the research shows the collar at the forte on these originated in Middle Asia and then traveled east.

21st February 2009, 04:12 PM	#19
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	thanx for the larger sized pics which was what i was hoping to find. re the reason it was missing being it's lack of sale, i suspected that may be the case but was not sure.

22nd February 2009, 07:02 PM	#21
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Once more, now without the distortion of the blade. Attached Images

22nd February 2009, 08:30 PM	#22
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Thank you Michael, this is a lovely sword, exceptionally well preserved and I doubt there is any doubt that it is Magyar indeed. I was able to see it in the Hofburg trasury early this year and tried to take pictures, but since using flash is forbidden, they did not come out too well. Attached Images

22nd February 2009, 08:40 PM	#23
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thanks for this color pic, Teodor. It is quite good despite the low light in the Vienna museum. Michael

24th February 2009, 05:56 PM	#24
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	This really is a great discussion on these early forms of sabre from these periods and regions. I have seen the 'Charlemagne' sword illustrated and discussed many times, and it had always seemed singular to me until I began seeing examples similar such as those shown here. Like so many other swords in museums with such distinguished attributions, it seems quite lavishly 'dressed' suggesting considerable 'maintainance and care' over the years. I have always been intrigued by the blade collar as well, whether the 'habaki' (Japanese) or 'tunkou' (Chinese) and how they must have been intended from a practical sense. They seem to be consistant of course on the varying sabre types of the steppes, and I always wondered about the more decorative use of these on yataghans and the association. Once again it is interesting to see the vestigial applications of certain sword elements that no longer serve in thier intended use, but are there just the same......kinda like the portholes from the old Buicks placed stylistically on newer models. Best regards, Jim