Victorian Wall Decoration?

Atlantia · 29th January 2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

OK I have a few more questions about this sword.
#1 Should I try to clean it anymore than I already have and if so what would be the best way to do it and what would be the best things to use? After stripping off the paint I used 0000 steel wool and machine oil to get it where it is now.
#2 Should I try to re-wrap the wire on the grip? I do have a couple of small pieces of the original wrap, a small piece of twisted or braided wire and a piece of solid wire.
#3 Where should the POB be on this?
Thank you all for any answers that you can offer to my questions.

Robert

Hi Robert.

1. Cleaning.
I think it loks fine already, a few areas look like they need a little more but it seems generally fine. Soooo, a little more of what you've done on the darker metal of the hilt/guard probobly wont hurt. Stick with the w-wool and machine oil, Its a fairly gently way to do it.
I'd say if you are going to do it, then identify the 'solder' or whatever it is first. If its the remains of the aluminium paint you mentioned then it can come off, if its a hard solder then you'll want to be careful if you continue the cleaning so you don't flex any of the joins and crack the solder.
Whatever you decide, I would say do it by hand. Don't be tempted to have a bash with your Dremel or anything powered.
With cleaning, you can always do a little bit more if you need to, but once you clean too harshly or leave grinding marks etc it can be difficult to disguise.

2. Re-wrapping.
This is a question of personal tastes.
Can you p[ost a pic of the bits of wire you removed?
Many very fine old swords have lost their wire wrap. Yours looks fine the way it is.
If you re-wrap it, then it needs to be done completely in keeping or it could make the sword look more like a repro/mix-n-match.
If you want to do it, then I would be happy to search my books for pictures of wired hilts that might help.

Is the tang visible in that split BTW?

3. POB.

OK, well I guess we have to decide if it was intended for 'fencing' on foot or its heavy construction was more for thrusting from horseback.
I tend to think the heavy blade and long handle mean it would be best for thrusting from horseback.
The POB on your sword is a little far forward (towards the point) for a rapier, (I would expect it to be more around 4 inches from the quillon block), and the handle and size would make is a little clumsy.
From horseback I can see it being fine for it to be a little further forward 5-6 inches.

So, my 'bottom line' views.
I love it.
A little more cleaning, but dont rush it.
Handle, fine as it is, so perhaps re-wrap if you can find the perfect wire to do it but it really doesn't matter.
POB, fine.

Just my opinons

Robert · 29th January 2009, 02:21 PM

Hi Gene, thank you for your advice on the cleaning of this piece. You can rest assured that I would NEVER under any circumstances use any motorized tool in the cleaning of any of my pieces.

To answer your question, yes the tang can be seen where the hilt is cracked.
After thinking about it I have decided to leave the hilt wrapping as is. I don't think that it could be done properly with out removing the fittings which would require grinding the riveted end of the tang to remove of the pommel. I will try to clean the remaining paint and some of the rust from the joints and crevasses of the hilt. Thank you again for all your help.

Robert

Atlantia · 30th January 2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hi Gene, thank you for your advice on the cleaning of this piece. You can rest assured that I would NEVER under any circumstances use any motorized tool in the cleaning of any of my pieces.

To answer your question, yes the tang can be seen where the hilt is cracked.
After thinking about it I have decided to leave the hilt wrapping as is. I don't think that it could be done properly with out removing the fittings which would require grinding the riveted end of the tang to remove of the pommel. I will try to clean the remaining paint and some of the rust from the joints and crevasses of the hilt. Thank you again for all your help.

Robert

You are more than welcome Robert.
Does the glimpse of tang give any more clues?

Robert · 30th January 2009, 07:46 PM

Unfortunately no, only about 2 inches of the tang can be seen in the split. It is well patinated (rusted

) but I can see no forging seam from being extended. Not sure if that is good or bad.

Robert

Atlantia · 30th January 2009, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Unfortunately no, only about 2 inches of the tang can be seen in the split. It is well patinated (rusted

) but I can see no forging seam from being extended. Not sure if that is good or bad.

Robert

Well its better than seeing a big weld

I think its a great piece! Please post more pictures if you do any cleaning or work on it.

All the Best
Gene

Robert · 30th January 2009, 09:48 PM

Gene, I would like to thank you, Kisak and Celtan once again for all of your help and time with this sword. With quite a bit of winter left ahead and to help keep myself from getting a bad case of cabin fever I will probably do a little more cleaning on this and try to remove the last of the paint and a little more of the rust from the hilt. I'll also clean the blade a little better while I'm at it. When done I will be more than happy to post more pictures.

With My Best Regards
Robert

Jim McDougall · 31st January 2009, 06:30 PM

I have been glancing at this thread occasionally and noting the outstanding observations and assessments on this very attractive and interesting piece. I agree that there is a wonderful warmth to a good story that often accompanies items that are passed on through families in estates and as heirlooms. In many cases, however, the stories have been misconstrued or embellished, which sometimes disappointing, though I personally consider all aspects part of the story, from the original version to the revised.

The idea of this piece being from the Philippines does not seem likely, though it would be wonderful to think of it as a Spanish colonial rapier carried by a Spanish officer there. I would think this piece was likely comingled with what sounds like a number of weapons, some of which were no doubt examples which may have been obtained there. Perhaps the 'wavy' bladed one was a Moro kris. It is quite common to have this occur, even in museums, as sometimes the groupings contain incongruent items and are all assumed from the same location.

I think the assessment of this blade being probably 18th century military is, as shown, correct, and though I do not think this fabrication is the work of Ernst Schmidt's atelier, I do agree it is likely the work of one of his contemporaries to represent an early rapier. It is a charming piece, and the hilt shows considerable skill in ironwork, and though not an authentic early example, has become a distinct antique in its own right, much as Schmidts work has.

Often when I see swords that are reconstructions of the period this piece, and of earlier periods recalling the colorful and chivalrous times of the past, I think of swords that often found use in Masonic lodges as Tylers swords.While it is well known that there were companies that produced regalia swords for the membership and officers, the sword used by the Tyler was profoundly considered more revered in its station. For this reason, I believe that many composite and skillfully fashioned examples became used in this capacity. In earlier research that concerned Masonic symbolism, I have come across numbers of instances of various swords with many degrees of fascinating history in thier eventual arrival in thier use by Tyler's.
While obviously I cannot say that is the case with this sword, it does seem worthy of note for consideration.

All best regards,
Jim

29th January 2009, 02:21 PM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Gene, thank you for your advice on the cleaning of this piece. You can rest assured that I would NEVER under any circumstances use any motorized tool in the cleaning of any of my pieces. To answer your question, yes the tang can be seen where the hilt is cracked. After thinking about it I have decided to leave the hilt wrapping as is. I don't think that it could be done properly with out removing the fittings which would require grinding the riveted end of the tang to remove of the pommel. I will try to clean the remaining paint and some of the rust from the joints and crevasses of the hilt. Thank you again for all your help. Robert

30th January 2009, 07:46 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Unfortunately no, only about 2 inches of the tang can be seen in the split. It is well patinated (rusted ) but I can see no forging seam from being extended. Not sure if that is good or bad. Robert

30th January 2009, 09:48 PM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Gene, I would like to thank you, Kisak and Celtan once again for all of your help and time with this sword. With quite a bit of winter left ahead and to help keep myself from getting a bad case of cabin fever I will probably do a little more cleaning on this and try to remove the last of the paint and a little more of the rust from the hilt. I'll also clean the blade a little better while I'm at it. When done I will be more than happy to post more pictures. With My Best Regards Robert

31st January 2009, 06:30 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,610	I have been glancing at this thread occasionally and noting the outstanding observations and assessments on this very attractive and interesting piece. I agree that there is a wonderful warmth to a good story that often accompanies items that are passed on through families in estates and as heirlooms. In many cases, however, the stories have been misconstrued or embellished, which sometimes disappointing, though I personally consider all aspects part of the story, from the original version to the revised. The idea of this piece being from the Philippines does not seem likely, though it would be wonderful to think of it as a Spanish colonial rapier carried by a Spanish officer there. I would think this piece was likely comingled with what sounds like a number of weapons, some of which were no doubt examples which may have been obtained there. Perhaps the 'wavy' bladed one was a Moro kris. It is quite common to have this occur, even in museums, as sometimes the groupings contain incongruent items and are all assumed from the same location. I think the assessment of this blade being probably 18th century military is, as shown, correct, and though I do not think this fabrication is the work of Ernst Schmidt's atelier, I do agree it is likely the work of one of his contemporaries to represent an early rapier. It is a charming piece, and the hilt shows considerable skill in ironwork, and though not an authentic early example, has become a distinct antique in its own right, much as Schmidts work has. Often when I see swords that are reconstructions of the period this piece, and of earlier periods recalling the colorful and chivalrous times of the past, I think of swords that often found use in Masonic lodges as Tylers swords.While it is well known that there were companies that produced regalia swords for the membership and officers, the sword used by the Tyler was profoundly considered more revered in its station. For this reason, I believe that many composite and skillfully fashioned examples became used in this capacity. In earlier research that concerned Masonic symbolism, I have come across numbers of instances of various swords with many degrees of fascinating history in thier eventual arrival in thier use by Tyler's. While obviously I cannot say that is the case with this sword, it does seem worthy of note for consideration. All best regards, Jim