10 luk blade ?

David · 11th January 2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

The hilt is tridagna not ivory the blade was very rusty when I did get it just cleaned a litte bit before the first wash after the next wash it will dissapear .

Thanks Ben, your close-up photo does in fact reveal your hilt to be tridagna. Sort of an aside to the topic, but nice to know anyway.

I still am not convinced that Willem keris has been artificially aged based on your comments. The obvious fact that many new keris are treated this way does not prove that this is one of them. Many keris are mistreated in their long lifetimes and don't look exactly pristine, or even as good as your examples, after many years of washing and staining.
That doesn't mean that there is absolutely no possibility that Willem's keris is a new, aged keris. The folks who do this stuff have become very good at it, no doubt. I just don't see how you or anyone else could possibly be as sure about this as you seem to be based solely on these on-line photos.

A. G. Maisey · 11th January 2009, 09:38 PM

Ben, I cannot challenge the wage rates you quote for Sanur, as I do not know the hours worked, or other conditions attached to the employment, but I can endorse the wage rates quoted by Kiai Carita.

It is my understanding that Kiai lives somewhere near Klaten. Klaten is in Central Jawa, near Solo, and the wage rates in the Solo area are amongst the lowest in Indonesia. If you looked at the same wage rates as applicable to say, Malang, or Bandung, these rates would be higher. If you compared these rates with Jakarta or Surabaya, they would be higher still.

My son in law is a middle manager with a major pharmaceutical company. He has recently returned to Solo, but when he was in Jakarta, his salary was in the range of RP. 6,000,000 to 8,000,000 per month, in addition he had a company car and his house was provided rent free. Since he has returned to Solo, which is the home town of both himself and his company, he has lost the company car and the free accomodation.

At the other end of the scale you have the example of a widow of a public service clerk who receives around RP. 1,200,000 per month as a pension.

Or a maintenance mechanic in a textile factory who receives around RP.1,500,000 per month.

However, it is absolutely correct that for ordinary working people in Indonesia there is always a shortage of available cash. Some necessities of life are very cheap in Indonesia, but other things are often expensive when compared to costs in developed countries. Additionally, there are what could perhaps be called "social expenses" to be met; these expenses are ones that people in developed countries do not have to meet.

Then there is the fact that since the beginning of recovery from the economic meltdown of a few years back, inflation has taken off again and is currently running at 11%.

So yes, there is a constant struggle to try to raise funds.

In respect of the possible age of the blade under discussion.

This is an old blade. There are many indicators that confirm this, such as the blade cross section, form of sogokan, form of blumbangan, pattern of erosion of pawakan, grain of material. There is no doubt at all that this is an old blade.

Yes, blades are artificially aged. This is normally done for aesthetic reasons, not to attempt to deceive a potential buyer.The biggest market for modern blades in Indonesia is the local market, purchase by tourists and export to other countries accounts for only a very small percentage of total production. Local buyers have access to the knowledge needed to differentiate between recently produced blades and genuinely old blades. It is pointless for any seller of keris in Indonesia to take a low quality recent blade and attempt to pass it off as a low quality old blade. Apart from anything else, there is no commercial advantage in this. The value of the recent blade, un-aged, and the badly eroded old blade is not so different.

Yes, very low quality blades are produced, but the target market for these very low quality blades is the local market in Indonesia:- people who need a keris for dress purposes, and whose means are limited.The so-called "tourist market" is so small it is not a consideration.

It is a different story with very high quality recent blades. I have seen, and I know of , instances where recently produced very high quality blades have been artificially aged with the deliberate intention to mislead the buyer into thinking he was buying something old. However, the collector in the western world need never worry about encountering this type of thing, for the simple reason that western collectors will not pay the price for a keris that these high level forgeries command, thus, western collectors never even get to see this type of keris, let alone be offered the opportunity to buy.

I have always found it difficult to understand how a blade can have an even number of luk. Since the luk count must finish on the same side that it started---which is the first luk just above the gandik--- it is impossible for any count to finish in an even number. But still, many people do support this even luk idea, and I have seen blades, and I own one myself, where there is effectively no obvious luk that would take the count to the required uneven number, however, this is not relevent:- if the luk are counted correctly, that is, by starting on the first above the gandik, and finishing the count on that same side of the blade, the luk count will always be an uneven number, whether the last luk is obvious or not.

The way luk are counted is not a personal, individual, decision. There is a correct way to do it, and many incorrect ways. Done the correct way, the result will always be an uneven number of luk. This uneven number is required, because the keris is a male symbol, and as such it must have a male number of luk. Even numbers are female in character.

asomotif · 12th January 2009, 12:55 AM

Dear Alan and others,

Thanks as allways for the abundance of knowledge and facts.
Very educating. The 10 luk story is than an European idea ?

I just liked the blade for its simplicity, the dress was not too recent and fitted well. And at Eur 50 (approx Usd 60) I did not get the impression I was paying too much. (that is in The Netherlands of course)

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 12th January 2009, 05:38 AM

No Willem, the idea of the possibility of an even number of luk is not necessarily European, I have encountered people in Jawa who will also count an even number of luk, but just because somebody is Javanese, or Indonesian, doesn't mean they know much about keris, and even some people who could be considered to be keris literate could have a different opinion to the one I have put forward in respect of even and uneven luk. The only problem with the concept of an even number of luk is that it is logically insupportable, but then logic has never stood in the way of anything to do with keris.

11th January 2009, 09:38 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Ben, I cannot challenge the wage rates you quote for Sanur, as I do not know the hours worked, or other conditions attached to the employment, but I can endorse the wage rates quoted by Kiai Carita. It is my understanding that Kiai lives somewhere near Klaten. Klaten is in Central Jawa, near Solo, and the wage rates in the Solo area are amongst the lowest in Indonesia. If you looked at the same wage rates as applicable to say, Malang, or Bandung, these rates would be higher. If you compared these rates with Jakarta or Surabaya, they would be higher still. My son in law is a middle manager with a major pharmaceutical company. He has recently returned to Solo, but when he was in Jakarta, his salary was in the range of RP. 6,000,000 to 8,000,000 per month, in addition he had a company car and his house was provided rent free. Since he has returned to Solo, which is the home town of both himself and his company, he has lost the company car and the free accomodation. At the other end of the scale you have the example of a widow of a public service clerk who receives around RP. 1,200,000 per month as a pension. Or a maintenance mechanic in a textile factory who receives around RP.1,500,000 per month. However, it is absolutely correct that for ordinary working people in Indonesia there is always a shortage of available cash. Some necessities of life are very cheap in Indonesia, but other things are often expensive when compared to costs in developed countries. Additionally, there are what could perhaps be called "social expenses" to be met; these expenses are ones that people in developed countries do not have to meet. Then there is the fact that since the beginning of recovery from the economic meltdown of a few years back, inflation has taken off again and is currently running at 11%. So yes, there is a constant struggle to try to raise funds. In respect of the possible age of the blade under discussion. This is an old blade. There are many indicators that confirm this, such as the blade cross section, form of sogokan, form of blumbangan, pattern of erosion of pawakan, grain of material. There is no doubt at all that this is an old blade. Yes, blades are artificially aged. This is normally done for aesthetic reasons, not to attempt to deceive a potential buyer.The biggest market for modern blades in Indonesia is the local market, purchase by tourists and export to other countries accounts for only a very small percentage of total production. Local buyers have access to the knowledge needed to differentiate between recently produced blades and genuinely old blades. It is pointless for any seller of keris in Indonesia to take a low quality recent blade and attempt to pass it off as a low quality old blade. Apart from anything else, there is no commercial advantage in this. The value of the recent blade, un-aged, and the badly eroded old blade is not so different. Yes, very low quality blades are produced, but the target market for these very low quality blades is the local market in Indonesia:- people who need a keris for dress purposes, and whose means are limited.The so-called "tourist market" is so small it is not a consideration. It is a different story with very high quality recent blades. I have seen, and I know of , instances where recently produced very high quality blades have been artificially aged with the deliberate intention to mislead the buyer into thinking he was buying something old. However, the collector in the western world need never worry about encountering this type of thing, for the simple reason that western collectors will not pay the price for a keris that these high level forgeries command, thus, western collectors never even get to see this type of keris, let alone be offered the opportunity to buy. I have always found it difficult to understand how a blade can have an even number of luk. Since the luk count must finish on the same side that it started---which is the first luk just above the gandik--- it is impossible for any count to finish in an even number. But still, many people do support this even luk idea, and I have seen blades, and I own one myself, where there is effectively no obvious luk that would take the count to the required uneven number, however, this is not relevent:- if the luk are counted correctly, that is, by starting on the first above the gandik, and finishing the count on that same side of the blade, the luk count will always be an uneven number, whether the last luk is obvious or not. The way luk are counted is not a personal, individual, decision. There is a correct way to do it, and many incorrect ways. Done the correct way, the result will always be an uneven number of luk. This uneven number is required, because the keris is a male symbol, and as such it must have a male number of luk. Even numbers are female in character.

12th January 2009, 12:55 AM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	Dear Alan and others, Thanks as allways for the abundance of knowledge and facts. Very educating. The 10 luk story is than an European idea ? I just liked the blade for its simplicity, the dress was not too recent and fitted well. And at Eur 50 (approx Usd 60) I did not get the impression I was paying too much. (that is in The Netherlands of course) Best regards, Willem

12th January 2009, 05:38 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	No Willem, the idea of the possibility of an even number of luk is not necessarily European, I have encountered people in Jawa who will also count an even number of luk, but just because somebody is Javanese, or Indonesian, doesn't mean they know much about keris, and even some people who could be considered to be keris literate could have a different opinion to the one I have put forward in respect of even and uneven luk. The only problem with the concept of an even number of luk is that it is logically insupportable, but then logic has never stood in the way of anything to do with keris.