A Cirebon (put-together) keris

David · 14th December 2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

P.S: I remember Adrian Noe's collection has a similar hilt, the one made of gold but the head is lion (?) - sorry I'm not able to find the webpage anymore. It's not a Javanese set, maybe a Sumatran kind.

Is this the hilt you are referring to? If so Noe had it's origins listed as Banjarmasin.

Kai Wee, i love this dhapur and have a very similar one in my own collection. I have also seen it identified as Kebo Giri. Does anyone know if this is a correct name variation or just a common keris misnomer?

tunggulametung · 14th December 2008, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Is this the hilt you are referring to? If so Noe had it's origins listed as Banjarmasin.

Kai Wee, i love this dhapur and have a very similar one in my own collection. I have also seen it identified as Kebo Giri. Does anyone know if this is a correct name variation or just a common keris misnomer?

Magic, yes Sir that is the one!
Kebo Giri I would call the dhapur.

Marcokeris · 14th December 2008, 08:50 PM

IMO the A. Noe hit could be also not comes from Kalimantan because Navasari usually has flowers in the hand (sometimes in together hands).
This hit has not flowers and no hand on the back. In true the face seems Navasari Banjarmasin (and also red stones could be from this place) but...i think it could also comes from Jawa or Bali (for bronze or brass material, for position of the body, for ornaments)

A. G. Maisey · 14th December 2008, 10:07 PM

Dhapur names and pamor names can and do change from area to area, from demographic to demographic, and from time to time.

Especially those dhapurs and pamors which are uncommon.

The dhapur of the blade shown by Kai Wee was identified by a spiritual advisor to President Suharto, who was also a mystic and a well known keris collector, as Dhapur Laler Mengeng. This was thirty years ago.

Ten years ago in Jogja it was identified as Mahesa Kanthong by a 70 year old dealer.

At the present time Haryono Haryoguritno identifies it as Kebo Kanthong.

Tunggulametung identifies it as Kebo Giri.

Take your pick.

David, may I ask where you have seen it identified as Kebo Giri?

David · 14th December 2008, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, may I ask where you have seen it identified as Kebo Giri?

Hi Alan. I have seen it called Kebo Giri in a number of places including one shown previously of this forum and eBay auctions. But it is also so named in Ensiklopedi Keris:
http://books.google.com/books?id=cVp...um=6&ct=result
I am aware that in some cases numerous names can be considered correct, but sometimes things get mislabeled and then the misinformation is past on until it becomes the accepted name. So i am not inclined to automatically accept a name just because i have seen it used before.

A. G. Maisey · 15th December 2008, 12:20 AM

Thanks David. I tend not to look at Ensiklopedi much.

Yeah, things do get mis-labelled, and the labels stick. My feeling towards this is that as long as it is within the culture it probably doesn't matter all that much. We've got kraton pakems, and I guess they need to be the last word, but naming of anything in Jawa is far from standardised. In fact the language itself---Javanese---is regarded by linguists as a non-standardised language, so I'm never going to get into a debate about the "correct" name of anything.

As I said:- take your pick.

A. G. Maisey · 15th December 2008, 08:46 PM

Further to comments in respect of the dhapur of this blade.

A check of the Surakarta pakem reveals that Kebo Kanthong is not shown in this pakem; neither is Kebo Giri, nor Mahesa Kanthong; Laler Mengeng is shown , and although it has the salient features of Kai Wee's blade, those features are interpreted differently.

In the volume that contains this pakem, a number of dhapurs are listed that are acknowledged as not appearing in the original pakem.

This list does not contain the names of any of the dhapur that I have mentioned above, but it does contain the name of Mahesa Kanthong.

Now here is something interesting:-

"kebo" is low level Javanese (ngoko) for "water buffalo"

"mahesa" ( or maesa) is high level Javanese (krama) for "water buffalo"

Since keris terminology should probably be given in krama, rather ngoko, it would seem that although "kebo" this, that and the other, in reference to dhapur is the common usage, the correct usage could perhaps be taken to be "Mahesa Kanthong".

From where I'm standing, it looks like my old dealer informant of some years ago was the person who was perhaps closest to the mark

14th December 2008, 08:50 PM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	IMO the A. Noe hit could be also not comes from Kalimantan because Navasari usually has flowers in the hand (sometimes in together hands). This hit has not flowers and no hand on the back. In true the face seems Navasari Banjarmasin (and also red stones could be from this place) but...i think it could also comes from Jawa or Bali (for bronze or brass material, for position of the body, for ornaments)

14th December 2008, 10:07 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Dhapur names and pamor names can and do change from area to area, from demographic to demographic, and from time to time. Especially those dhapurs and pamors which are uncommon. The dhapur of the blade shown by Kai Wee was identified by a spiritual advisor to President Suharto, who was also a mystic and a well known keris collector, as Dhapur Laler Mengeng. This was thirty years ago. Ten years ago in Jogja it was identified as Mahesa Kanthong by a 70 year old dealer. At the present time Haryono Haryoguritno identifies it as Kebo Kanthong. Tunggulametung identifies it as Kebo Giri. Take your pick. David, may I ask where you have seen it identified as Kebo Giri?

15th December 2008, 12:20 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Thanks David. I tend not to look at Ensiklopedi much. Yeah, things do get mis-labelled, and the labels stick. My feeling towards this is that as long as it is within the culture it probably doesn't matter all that much. We've got kraton pakems, and I guess they need to be the last word, but naming of anything in Jawa is far from standardised. In fact the language itself---Javanese---is regarded by linguists as a non-standardised language, so I'm never going to get into a debate about the "correct" name of anything. As I said:- take your pick.

15th December 2008, 08:46 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Further to comments in respect of the dhapur of this blade. A check of the Surakarta pakem reveals that Kebo Kanthong is not shown in this pakem; neither is Kebo Giri, nor Mahesa Kanthong; Laler Mengeng is shown , and although it has the salient features of Kai Wee's blade, those features are interpreted differently. In the volume that contains this pakem, a number of dhapurs are listed that are acknowledged as not appearing in the original pakem. This list does not contain the names of any of the dhapur that I have mentioned above, but it does contain the name of Mahesa Kanthong. Now here is something interesting:- "kebo" is low level Javanese (ngoko) for "water buffalo" "mahesa" ( or maesa) is high level Javanese (krama) for "water buffalo" Since keris terminology should probably be given in krama, rather ngoko, it would seem that although "kebo" this, that and the other, in reference to dhapur is the common usage, the correct usage could perhaps be taken to be "Mahesa Kanthong". From where I'm standing, it looks like my old dealer informant of some years ago was the person who was perhaps closest to the mark