How late 15th to mid 16th century guns were aimed, in historic illustrations

[Matchlock]

Hi Fernando,

The "translating machine" sure made everything perfectly clear, and believe me: it's highly appreciated across some oceans over here in Bavaria this very early morning!!!

That's just so nice, buddy - answering back in German - thanks a million times!!!

Looking forward to any further comments - they are so much rewarding, believe me ...

Keep gettin' me going!


A very special good night is sent out to all of my forum buddies out there,

Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi, Fernando,

May I add these:



Michael

[Chris Evans]

Hi Michael,

Wonderful contribution - Thanking you very much.

Cheers
Chris

[Matchlock]

Hi, Chris,

Thanking you very much,

Michael

[fernando]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the .

Can you now coment on the the gun/stock positioning for the aiming/shooting ?

Thinking these would be all, and not necessarily by chronological order ...

1 - Propped by all kinds of devices, like stands, hooks, forks and the like.
2 - Hand self held, away from the body.
3 - Under the arm.
4 - Against the chest.
5 - Against the cheek.
6 - Over the shoulder.
7 - Against the shoulder.

... Assuming # 1 and 2 (at least), are not actual aiming positions, but instead more like a protective way, to avoid the thing blasting in your face ?
... or just because actual aiming was not yet in people's minds ?

Come on, teach us something .

Thanks
Fernando

[Matchlock]

Hi, Fernando,

Actually I graduated from University 26 years ago to become a teacher but hardly ever worked in that profession. So I see my part among the forum community not as teaching but rather sharing my knowlegde and archives.

I fully agree with all the possibilities that you noted.

The main thought behind the elongated 14th to early 16th century butstocks was in fact the intention to be in "safe" distance, just for the worst case when the gun would burst. We have a nice saying in German: "Weit ab vom Schuss sein", meaning to be far away from something dangerous. Schuss, of course, means a shot ringing out.

You are perfectly right as well in assuming that accurate aiming was not really the most important thing in war in those time periods; it sufficed to fire into a mass of enemies - which was characteristic of all warfare as long as muzzle loaders were in use. Actual aiming in those days was important only when practising on targets or when hunting.

Interesting enough, the earliest forms of sights arise in about 1460 and develop quite rapidly from then. In the early 16th century, which is the age of Maximilian I, we find fully developed back-sights at the extreme rear of a barrel and blade or bead fore-sights at the muzzle. The farer the back-sight moves forward the younger, i.e. more modern, is the barrel. By the mid 16th century the back-sight has moved forward from the rear by ca. 8-10 cm, and it will have moved another 10 cm by the beginning of the 17th century.

Honestly, I do not understand why. In my opinion, the farer the distance between the sights, the more accurate the aiming. Anybody prove me wrong?

Michael

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi Fernando,

No, I can't teach anyone anything, so am not about to try!
...but on one picture, the firer appears to have his eyes shut and looking away from his gun!......All very natural with the great heavy gun he is firing!

Figuring exactly how these guns were held is rather difficult for us, as artists were not always familiar with actually firing guns, yet the basic principles are very well shown in these pictures.

Michael may hold the key here, as his original gunstocks may have wear areas to show How they were held. (Areas of the stocks more "polished" through handling. then again, if they were but little used, this may not be the case.)

Richard.

Good morning, Michael.

You answered Fernando whilst I was writing my post, so would like to comment also;
It makes a lot of sense,...keeping a good distance from the part that might explode!
Re. the back sight;
Yes, the further apart, the longer the sighting radius, so in theory the more accurate.
the earlier sights tend to be peep or tube sights, and these work better when close to the eye, but Can you tell me Micheal, if the later sights you mention, (the ones further up the barrel)
Are these later sights open 'V' types?
If this is so, this Also makes sense, as the eye cannot focus on a close-to the-eye open sight, And the front sight, And the target,...all at roughly the same time, so a 'V' must be further from the eye,to be used accurately.
(with the tube sight, the eye merely looks through the tube, and automatically centres the for-sight in the tube and, on the target.

Hope this makes sense!!

All the best!

Richard.

[Matchlock]

Richard,

Actually, the earliest sights of the 1460's were V sights though they were really U shaped.

V-shaped sights show up in the early 16th century and from ca. 1520-1550, sometimes as late as 1600, tubes are shoved over them! So there is hardly any tubuluar "back-sight" without an actual V sight hidden beneath. Sometimes, on barels from the 1520's, you will even find two V sights one after the other and of different sizes, meant for a long focussing tube. These tubes got lost quite often, as is the case in my Nürnberg harquebus; as you will see, the one at the GNM retains its staged brass tube whereas in mine just the dove tailed V sight base is present. I really should replace the tube some time.

My Straubing harquebus never had a tube, you can tell because the external sides of its V sight are not cut to receive a tube. Tubes had mostly become oldfashioned by the 1540's.

Thank you so much for explaining the basal physics of sighting, I was not aware of that. I am a philologist.

Michael

[fernando]

Hi Richard,

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

...Figuring exactly how these guns were held is rather difficult for us, as artists were not always familiar with actually firing guns, yet the basic principles are very well shown in these pictures ...

I wasn't ( necessarily) referring to the pictures, but to the actual positions had by gun holding through time, specialy when accurate aiming appeared.
The different stock holding stages: chest, cheek, over shoulder and shoulder front, together with their respective stock designs, must have followed an ergonomic evolution, joining conveniences like sustaining the firing impact and a permanent improving aiming intention.
... if i make myself understood.
Fernando