19th century fencing foils

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by William V.

Thanks for the fast pictures Fernando...

Regarding the kings head: maybe there is some kind of forgery into this.
As you said, Weyersberg / Solingen was a well known name too: So why not copy the marking and change it slightly to be sure to get no legal issues?
Is just a wild guess, but with your permission I will ask at Weyersberg directly (they are really nice people) if they ever used this kind of marking (or know of a forger who did.

Regarding the "S": As far as I know, you are right. It stands for Solingen. By the way: Blades intended to be sold to a foreign country are (as far as I know marked with an "A", perhaps for german: "Ausland" which means "Foreign Country"). In addition to this, it is interesting to know that Klingenthal used the same symbol with a "K" (logically for "Klingenthal") in it

@ Jim: Always a pleasure to help

William

More excellent information William. I would never had known the 'A' might have meant that. The marketing and commercial acumen of Solingen was in a word, magnificent! This huge export machine overpowered locally made products even in Spain, and probably in many cases, France.

The use of spurious makers marks, popular wording etc. was well aligned for clients as well. The kings head was also used early by Johannes Wundes if my memory serves, and was a venerable mark by these times. It seems blades sometimes had numerous kings heads stamped in groupings, as many as four sometimes. In my thinking, this might have something to do with the numerous stamps used as hallmarks on silverwork, perhaps suggesting quality of that level? Just a thought for multiple stamps on regular blades.

There is so much historical data reflected in the curious markings and stamps we find on weapons, and that is why I hope to continue compiling more in these threads for future research. Using the search feature will reveal the most current data on these subjects.

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi,
Like Fernando, I also wanted to post these two fencing foils, ( hope you don't mind) The first I believe to be French mid to late 19th C , blade marked ' C G ' with a crown above ...no idea as to the meaning .The blade tip is sharply pointed and sinisterly ...judging by the rust pitting this 'point' was made a long time ago. Used for duelling ?? ...... I have no idea ...would anyone know if this was common modification.

The second I think is possibly older.....lots of micro pitting to the guard and blade. The wooden handle has a carved chequered pattern which has bee heavily 'rubbed' from extensive use No discernable marks but may have lost them due to rust/pitting.

All comments gratefully received....thank you

Regards David

[broadaxe]

Katana, your first foil (actually - the only foil, for the second item please follow) is very interesting: straight hilt made of what seems like leather washers, with a very small pommel; wide soulders at the ricasso. I can risk by say it has been made privately or custom ordered.
Please specify blade length, weight and point of balance. Now, duelling foils are not nonexisting but very rare, simply becuase the thin square/rectangular blade is too flexible.

The other item is a sport/olympic saber. Judging from its wooden grip, design of the bowl guard and I could almost swear it is made of steel - please check it (the guard I mean) with a magnet - it is circa 1920-1930's.

[katana]

Thank you for the reply Broadaxe ,
the handle is wood (unknown species) with concentric grooves, gives good 'grip' when held.


Blade length to raised shoulder 83 cms
Overall length is 98 cms
handle (including pommel) is 13cm
POB is 12cms from the raised shoulder.....27.5 cms from the pommel 'end'
weight is 310 grammes.

Would you have any idea what 'C.G' with a crown above (the crown is 'crested' with a cross) I have tried to photograph this but it will not show up clearly.

Thank you for the info on the sabre, the bowl is steel ...there is no evidence of any plating or remains of plating on any of the various steel components. Do you think there was originally ? Thank you

Kind Regards David

[broadaxe]

Unfortunately the initials C.G. do not ring any bell
The POB is down the blade (comparing to a modern foil), due to the small pommel, and this is also an evidence of an amateure making. I think the broad shoulders were intended to give more weight up the blade - the same way it was on practice longswords of the 15th c. in order to have a safe flexible blade with good balance similar to a fighting sword's. The length is somewhat shorter then the standard. Nevertheless, the work look of high quality.
Steel guard sabers used to have nickel plating and/or coloring, but I don't know if this used to be a must.

[katana]

Hi Broadaxe ,
thanks again for your comments. I always thought the foil was unusual. As I said before, the sharp point is 'old', using a magnifying glass I can see the same patination and slight pitting as the blade. The blade isn't as 'whippy' as you might expect. To give you some comparison if the foil is pushed, point first into the wall (pressing on the pommel) there is very little flex. If the same pressure is applied to the Sabre the blade flexes around 3" ( I used a spring balance weighing scales to push the pommels ..both were 'forced' by 5.5 kgs ...approx. 12lbs).
The foil would have no problem in stabbing (quite deeply ) assuming it missed bone I also found this, perhaps my half hearted thoughts of this being a dueling 'sword' is'nt so wrong


"...The foil was invented in France as a training weapon in the middle of the 18th century in order to practice fast and elegant thrust fencing. Fencers blunted the point by wrapping a foil around the blade or fastening a knob on the point ("blossom", French fleuret). In addition to practising, some fencers took away the protection and used the sharp foil for duels. German students took up that practice and developed the Pariser ("Parisian") thrusting small sword for the Stoßmensur ("thrusting mensur"). After the dress sword was abolished, the Pariser became the only weapon for academic thrust fencing in Germany.

Since fencing on thrust with a sharp point is quite dangerous, many students died from their lungs being pierced (Lungenfuchser) which made breathing difficult or impossible. However, the counter movement had already started in Göttingen in the 1760s. Here the Göttinger Hieber was invented, the predecessor of the modern Korbschläger, a new weapon for cut fencing. In the following years, the Glockenschläger was invented in East German universities for cut fencing as well.

Thrust fencing (using Pariser) and cut fencing using Korbschläger or Glockenschläger) existed in parallel in Germany during the first decades of the 19th century - with local preferences. So thrust fencing was especially popular in Jena, Erlangen, Würzburg and Ingolstadt/Landshut, two towns where the predecessors of Munich university were located. The last thrust Mensur is recorded to have taken place in Würzburg in 1860.

Until the first half of the 19th century all types of academic fencing can be seen as duels, since all fencing with sharp weapons was about honour. No combat with sharp blades took place without a formal insult....."

Regards David

A Pariser..

[William V.]

Hi Katana,

regarding the foil (the saber is not that interesting ):
Like broadaxe I have no idea which forge might use "CG" under a crown but it was not uncommon to use foils as a substitute for duelling epees. In fact this habit was critisised by contemporary sources (e.g. G. Hergsell in his "Duell-Codex").
Nevertheless: If you could try to get a decent picture I would try to find out more on the weapon.

All the best

William