A cup hilted sword rapier for coments

[Chris Evans]

Hi Jim,

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Concerning whether the 'cuphilt' was civilian or military, or both, this is addressed in degree in "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820" by A.V.B.Norman, 1980, "...since the cuphilt is apparantly confined to Spain and lands under Spanish influence, that is southern Italy and the Spanish Netherlands, one must search in portraits of civilians from these areas, particularly in court dress. As far as I am aware, it is never illustrated in military dress in the 17th century". (pp.175-76).

I must agree with Fernando. This was a case of Norman not choosing his words carefully enough - Perhaps he should have said something like "the widespread use of the CH in Spanish influenced...". In fact, the cup hilt found its way to many parts of Europe that was not under Spanish influence, England for one. Swordplay was in a constant state of evolution and the CH addressed the emergent need for a more comprehensive protection of the hand in response to the ever `tighter' style of fencing. All I can say is that his otherwise excellent work must be read in conjunction with works like that of Castle to get around such minor slip-ups.

Additionally, looking at portraits is only a hint, because unless the scabbard is very narrow, we can't say what kind of blade the hilt is attached to. In other words, a cup, or any other complex hilt, a rapier does not make.

Cheers
Chris

[Jim McDougall]

OK Fernando but as Chris has further noted the quote I used, it seems even more clear that it would have been better paraphrased ....and the content of the wording affected you from the omission of Portugal, while Chris notes possibilities of other areas where cuphilts might have appeared in limited instance. I believe I have even heard of an example or two in Germany, though I cannot support that with examples, but would not be surprised as they often produced swords intended for other countries.

Regardless, Mr. Norman was in my opinion addressing the widely held perspective on the regions typically associated with these cuphilt forms in general, and truly did not propose an in depth study of the type nor related fencing theory. His focus was on hilts alone, and his wording seems to lean toward keeping more to that, with brevity probably leading to the questionable wording. Had he been writing with other focus than simply identifying the hilts, perhaps his statement would have been more qualified.

The cuphilt seems to be essentially a deeper and more protective version of the shallow saucer or dish type guards on earlier similar type swords (intentionally avoiding the term rapier), but in identification the term cuphilt basically refers to the type hilt pictured here in the thread.

Mr. Norman's work was most innovative in using the classical art and portraiture for identifying hilt forms, which is why there is virtually no discussion of blades whatsoever in the book (actually offhand I cannot recall a single reference to blades).

In the study of weapons, I could not agree with Chris more, one should always cross check with any resource avaliable on the subject. I do not think however, that the type of blade was an issue with Norman's work, as the focus of his typology was on hilts identified to period through contemporary art, and had nothing to do with development of fencing theory or style.


Excellent points Chris and Fernando, and I dont mean to be too defensive of Mr. Norman, but his work remains to me an outstanding work of scholarship and I believe did what he set out to do. He had some difficulty with it at the time with publishing etc as I recall, and it really was well received when it was finally complete.

Mark, ya old scalawag!! I'm glad you barged in!!! You know we cant resist those beauties from the Spanish Main!!!


All very best regards,
Jim

[Chris Evans]

Hi Jim,

Firtsly, I would like to say what a pleasure it is to find a fellow enthusiast or arms and armour, who is so appreciative of the work of AVB Norman - His work reflected a curatorial approach and I suspect that he had scant knowledge of swordsmanship, but with all his faults, he made a huge practical contribution to our knowledge, though mostly of hilts as you say.

He did seem to have an awareness, albeit none too strong, of the significance of the blade, which he addresses in passing in chapter 2 "Rapiers and Small-swords", pgs19-28. For example: "...many so called swept hilts are found on relatively broad blades....which no modern collector would class as a rapier...."

As for the evolution of hilts, I feel we would do better to defer to Castle who dealt with this at some length. He draws our attention to that in the era when the sword was merely an offensive weapon, the simple cross guard, complemented by a mail gauntlet sufficed. However once blade on blade actions became normative greater hand protection was required and the complex hilts (CH), swept and baskets (on broad swords) were developed. In time, many of the loops were filled with solid or pierced plates for ever greater protection and eventually these solidified and morphed into the cup hilt and its variants, which appeared around 1630, maybe earlier, and in all likely hood in Spain. As the ponderous long rapier gave way to the nimbler transitional rapier the action of parrying with the blade became increasingly more frequent and there was less need for the larger complex hilts. The first radical departure from the CH was that of the Flamberg, a transitional rapier (TR) equiped with a simple small dish with quillons (cross bars). Other simplifications found on TRs included the retention of a light knuckle bow and quillons with pas d'ane (finger rings surrounding the ricassso) and the reduction of the cup into what these days we tend to call bilboate shells. With the advent of the small-sword and the attendant full parry-riposte play, hilts were further simplified with the gradual elimination of the pas d'ane, further shortening of the quillons, and reduction of the shell or dish and the retention of a largely ornamental knuckle bow, as by that time the risk to the hands was no longer posed by a cut, rather a thrust. Interestingly, the late 19th century dueling epee retained a cup hilt every bit as large as that of the earlier rapier, so this suggests that the much reduced hilt of the TR and the small-sword was as much about convenience as the reduced need for hand protection on account of a more evolved blade play.

Cheers
Chris

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Jim,

Firtsly, I would like to say what a pleasure it is to find a fellow enthusiast or arms and armour, who is so appreciative of the work of AVB Norman - His work reflected a curatorial approach and I suspect that he had scant knowledge of swordsmanship, but with all his faults, he made a huge practical contribution to our knowledge, though mostly of hilts as you say.

He did seem to have an awareness, albeit none too strong, of the significance of the blade, which he addresses in passing in chapter 2 "Rapiers and Small-swords", pgs19-28. For example: "...many so called swept hilts are found on relatively broad blades....which no modern collector would class as a rapier...."

As for the evolution of hilts, I feel we would do better to defer to Castle who dealt with this at some length. He draws our attention to that in the era when the sword was merely an offensive weapon, the simple cross guard, complemented by a mail gauntlet sufficed. However once blade on blade actions became normative greater hand protection was required and the complex hilts (CH), swept and baskets (on broad swords) were developed. In time, many of the loops were filled with solid or pierced plates for ever greater protection and eventually these solidified and morphed into the cup hilt and its variants, which appeared around 1630, maybe earlier, and in all likely hood in Spain. As the ponderous long rapier gave way to the nimbler transitional rapier the action of parrying with the blade became increasingly more frequent and there was less need for the larger complex hilts. The first radical departure from the CH was that of the Flamberg, a transitional rapier (TR) equiped with a simple small dish with quillons (cross bars). Other simplifications found on TRs included the retention of a light knuckle bow and quillons with pas d'ane (finger rings surrounding the ricassso) and the reduction of the cup into what these days we tend to call bilboate shells. With the advent of the small-sword and the attendant full parry-riposte play, hilts were further simplified with the gradual elimination of the pas d'ane, further shortening of the quillons, and reduction of the shell or dish and the retention of a largely ornamental knuckle bow, as by that time the risk to the hands was no longer posed by a cut, rather a thrust. Interestingly, the late 19th century dueling epee retained a cup hilt every bit as large as that of the earlier rapier, so this suggests that the much reduced hilt of the TR and the small-sword was as much about convenience as the reduced need for hand protection on account of a more evolved blade play.

Cheers
Chris

Chris, what an absolutely fantastic summary on the development of these hilts as associated with fencing style!!! and thank you for the gentle correction on that part of Mr. Norman's book, which I had completely overlooked. Indeed, his approach was curatorial and as mentioned, in 1978 his tremendous work encountered difficulty in publishing, at the time he was Master of the Armouries in London. The book was finally published in 1980.

In my studying on weapons some time ago, he always patiently and faithfully responded to my queries and openly shared his perspective in the most kind and friendly manner. In 1998, he informed me he would be coming to Dallas and suggested we meet, and you can imagine my excitement. A short time later he became ill, and I received his regrets of not being able to make the trip from his family. He passed several weeks later. Inserted in the pages of my copy of his book, which I treasure, are still the letters from this kind man, who was indeed an inspiration to me, and actually, still is.

With all very best regards,
Jim

[Chris Evans]

Hi Jim,

Allow me to say that it is always a pleasure to read your posts, which reflect great scholarship and a gentlemanly approach.

I envy your good fortune in having corresponded with the late Mr Norman. IMHO, his wonderful work and that of Castle pretty much covers the evolution of the rapier to the small sword. I only wished that Castle would have dealt with some of the developments of the 19th century such as that of the Italian fencing sabre and the French dueling epee.

I feel that neither of these works will be improved upon in the foreseeable future, as they both covered all that could be within reason and little else will go beyond being mere commentaries, footnotes and minor corrections to these two foundational works.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Just for the record. I believe the rapier was some sort of "universal" weapon in west Europe, though I never checked how many countries have rapiers with cup hilts and crossguards. Unless proved the contrary, there are rapiers with cup hilts from the german states, not made for the external market. Some, very beautiful. Please see this examples:

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7408

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7413

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7395

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7255

http://www.flg.es/ficha.asp?ID=7248

among others. They belong to what among the spanish scholars is known as the "German School". It dreserves a mention that the germans were very affectionated to duelling in their civil life, maybe for centuries. An interestig comparative study could be made of the hilts and guards. The cup hilt has obvious advantages in the rapier style of fencing, and there were rapiers all over west Europe. Even probably the development of a more refinated style of fencing in the late 18th Century, can explain the bigger cup hilts seen on some rapiers of the period. This is an hypothesis expressed by some spanish erudites and swordsman as Juan José Pérez.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

Great links, thank you.

I wonder what distinguished those of the German school from other cup hilted rapiers - I wan under the impression that the Germans used the edge more, but these samples look very thrust oriented.

Cheers
Chris