Barong Classification

zamboanga · 13th April 2005, 10:21 AM

spunjer,

you could throw in the type of sampil fabric used in the scabbard. tho it is not available in each and every old barong...

Spunjer · 13th April 2005, 11:07 AM

zamboanga,
glad you brought that up. could you be so kind enuff as to differentiate those? i have one and the fabric feels like felt, and it is solid red. any significance???

Battara · 13th April 2005, 12:31 PM

Spunjer, I know that at one time for many tribes, the wearing of red meant that one had killed and it was a badge of honor and rank (red for blood). Later I wonder if it became more significant as a talisman.

Battara · 14th April 2005, 05:18 PM

You know, another thought came into my mind (still hurts

) and that is another type of barong to consider. Ibeam and I were discussing the sipit barong that has a narrower blade profile, and the hilt comes over in an angle and is almost flat at less than a 45 degree angle. I'll post some pictures if I can. This label comes from Cecil Quirino according to Ibeam and not found in Cato's book.

Ian · 14th April 2005, 10:39 PM

Hi Battara:

Look forward to seeing the pictures of a sipit barung -- don't quite follow your description of the hilt, but a picture should clear that up. Another style not found in Cato is the shandigan barung with its swollen edge, which we talked about a little bit in this thread already.

A question for the barung fans:

Do you think there is a consensus about classifying barung based on Spunjer's proposal, perhaps with some modifications, such that an essay (with illustrations) could be written and published here in the Archives? We have talked about creating additional informative pieces that could serve as references, and an update to Cato's work would be appreciated by many of us. For several years I have been hearing that Cecil Quirino is going to write a more definitive text, setting down new material and correcting inaccuracies in Cato's book, but nothing has emerged yet. Why not help educate ourselves more while we wait for Cecil's book? Just a thought.

Ian.

Federico · 14th April 2005, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Battara:
A question for the barung fans:

Do you think there is a consensus about classifying barung based on Spunjer's proposal, perhaps with some modifications, such that an essay (with illustrations) could be written and published here in the Archives? We have talked about creating additional informative pieces that could serve as references, and an update to Cato's work would be appreciated by many of us. For several years I have been hearing that Cecil Quirino is going to write a more definitive text, setting down new material and correcting inaccuracies in Cato's book, but nothing has emerged yet. Why not help educate ourselves more while we wait for Cecil's book? Just a thought.

Ian.

My vote has already been made (for what its worth as a mere hobbiest), note earlier posts, against separating Samal and Tausug barong by the criteria listed. Shandigan barong are described in Bob's book, but the name is not used, nor is there a picture of an example. The term really hadnt popped up into more common use til Cecil featured the name for a new barong being produced by his company just a couple years ago. There are a number of changes in later catalogs as well, eg. the use of the term kiwo instead of kalis seko to describe tausug kris, which may hint at things to come once his book is finally published.

Ian · 15th April 2005, 04:45 AM

Barung banditos:

I'm thinking that with some skillful wordsmithing, even widely divergent views can be syhthesized along the lines of "one school of thought has suggested ..." and "another body of opinion believes that distinguishing between the characteristics of barung among the Samal and Tausug is very difficult because of substantial overlap in styles." Seems that a scholarly approach could be crafted that would be useful to the reader as we search for more information to better define the subject matter.

I suspect that the truth lies somewhere between being able to conclusively distinguish the two forms and there being no way to distinguish between them.

Spunjer and others have spent some time trying to work this out, and they have offered some testable hypotheses. Those efforts are laudable and should not be cast aside. Can you guys get together and work on the available data -- pictures, descriptions, etc. -- to flesh out these ideas and reach some consensus? It would be great to move beyond opinion and conjecture, and understand better the areas of agreement and disagreement.

Waiting for Cecil Quirino's book is a poor reason for not trying to do something now. As far as I know, nobody has yet seen a draft of this book. Moreover, just writing a book is a substantial and time consuming undertaking, let alone getting it printed -- it is possible Cecil's book may never happen. Why not try to do something more modest with what we have here?

Ian.

zamboanga · 17th April 2005, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

zamboanga,
glad you brought that up. could you be so kind enuff as to differentiate those? i have one and the fabric feels like felt, and it is solid red. any significance???

glad to do that spunjer. here is a picture of a tausug and a yakan fabric placed side by side.

the tausug (left) has smaller designs, the threads used are much thinner. The tausug fabric in the picture is a cotton/silk combination (the pink threads are silk, the rest cotton).

The yakan fabric (right) has brighter colors, uses a larger thread and have bigger designs. this one is made of cotton and is of recent make. older yakan fabrics also used silk.

tom hyle · 17th April 2005, 06:29 AM

Fair to say that in the old days the individual threads in the fabric were likely made/spun/etc. within the tribe, but are now often outsourced off the open planetary market?

zamboanga · 17th April 2005, 08:34 AM

in older times, silk was traded from the chinese. it was not and is still not made locally. other materials used like abaca were and still are locally produced. modern ethnic fabrics even those from non-moro tribes are still hand-woven. the only difference are the materials used (threads, dyes, etc.) which are often commercially sourced, and the intended purpose (i.e., wall decors, table runners, etc). but the designs are basically the same.

Ian · 17th April 2005, 05:17 PM

Just finished on eBay. Recently made but illustrative of some of the Palawano style.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7314461834
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7314462329

Ian.

Battara · 17th April 2005, 07:35 PM

I think that these are examples of the "sipit barong" to which I was refering. Narrower blades, hilts more angularly flat at the top. I'm not sure if this type is a more recent type or one that has not been recognized (the examples here are very new).

17th April 2005, 05:17 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Two Palawano barung ... Just finished on eBay. Recently made but illustrative of some of the Palawano style. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7314461834 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7314462329 Ian. Last edited by Ian; 17th April 2005 at 05:29 PM.

13th April 2005, 10:21 AM	#1
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	spunjer, you could throw in the type of sampil fabric used in the scabbard. tho it is not available in each and every old barong...

13th April 2005, 11:07 AM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	zamboanga, glad you brought that up. could you be so kind enuff as to differentiate those? i have one and the fabric feels like felt, and it is solid red. any significance???

13th April 2005, 12:31 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	Spunjer, I know that at one time for many tribes, the wearing of red meant that one had killed and it was a badge of honor and rank (red for blood). Later I wonder if it became more significant as a talisman.

14th April 2005, 05:18 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	You know, another thought came into my mind (still hurts ) and that is another type of barong to consider. Ibeam and I were discussing the sipit barong that has a narrower blade profile, and the hilt comes over in an angle and is almost flat at less than a 45 degree angle. I'll post some pictures if I can. This label comes from Cecil Quirino according to Ibeam and not found in Cato's book.

14th April 2005, 10:39 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Hi Battara: Look forward to seeing the pictures of a sipit barung -- don't quite follow your description of the hilt, but a picture should clear that up. Another style not found in Cato is the shandigan barung with its swollen edge, which we talked about a little bit in this thread already. A question for the barung fans: Do you think there is a consensus about classifying barung based on Spunjer's proposal, perhaps with some modifications, such that an essay (with illustrations) could be written and published here in the Archives? We have talked about creating additional informative pieces that could serve as references, and an update to Cato's work would be appreciated by many of us. For several years I have been hearing that Cecil Quirino is going to write a more definitive text, setting down new material and correcting inaccuracies in Cato's book, but nothing has emerged yet. Why not help educate ourselves more while we wait for Cecil's book? Just a thought. Ian.

15th April 2005, 04:45 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Barung banditos: I'm thinking that with some skillful wordsmithing, even widely divergent views can be syhthesized along the lines of "one school of thought has suggested ..." and "another body of opinion believes that distinguishing between the characteristics of barung among the Samal and Tausug is very difficult because of substantial overlap in styles." Seems that a scholarly approach could be crafted that would be useful to the reader as we search for more information to better define the subject matter. I suspect that the truth lies somewhere between being able to conclusively distinguish the two forms and there being no way to distinguish between them. Spunjer and others have spent some time trying to work this out, and they have offered some testable hypotheses. Those efforts are laudable and should not be cast aside. Can you guys get together and work on the available data -- pictures, descriptions, etc. -- to flesh out these ideas and reach some consensus? It would be great to move beyond opinion and conjecture, and understand better the areas of agreement and disagreement. Waiting for Cecil Quirino's book is a poor reason for not trying to do something now. As far as I know, nobody has yet seen a draft of this book. Moreover, just writing a book is a substantial and time consuming undertaking, let alone getting it printed -- it is possible Cecil's book may never happen. Why not try to do something more modest with what we have here? Ian.

17th April 2005, 06:29 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Fair to say that in the old days the individual threads in the fabric were likely made/spun/etc. within the tribe, but are now often outsourced off the open planetary market?

17th April 2005, 08:34 AM	#10
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	in older times, silk was traded from the chinese. it was not and is still not made locally. other materials used like abaca were and still are locally produced. modern ethnic fabrics even those from non-moro tribes are still hand-woven. the only difference are the materials used (threads, dyes, etc.) which are often commercially sourced, and the intended purpose (i.e., wall decors, table runners, etc). but the designs are basically the same.

17th April 2005, 07:35 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	I think that these are examples of the "sipit barong" to which I was refering. Narrower blades, hilts more angularly flat at the top. I'm not sure if this type is a more recent type or one that has not been recognized (the examples here are very new).