Kindi on swords and iron

RhysMichael · 18th November 2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

In Medieval Islamic Swords and Sword making, Kindi’s treatise ‘On swords and their kinds’, by Robert G. Hoyland and Brian Gilmour, 2006, there is something interesting when Kindi describes the Frankish sword – here is a quote.

Page 42 ……[And] on their foreparts are crescent moons filled with yellow copper or gold, or a cross likewise filled [with yellow copper or gold]. And among them are some that have an incision in one part of their structure into which a nail of gold or yellow copper has been worked. Sometimes in the most well-formed [ancient] Yemeni swords that nail was also nailed with gold into its structure or tip. ……

.

Could this be the first written reference to the origin of the half moon or cresent moon mark we now see on kaskara and such even today ?

Jens Nordlunde · 18th November 2008, 01:22 PM

I don’t know if it is the first written reference, but it is the oldest one I have seen, that is why I found it interesting.

It has now and again been discussed if the round gold/copper/braze marking on blades would make the blades weaker. However the mention of nails made me think that the hole in the blade does not have to be very big. A small hole in the blade for the nail to go through would be enough, and the head of the nail and the rest of the nail could be hammered flat on either side of the blade, so both would look like if the hole had been bigger. Maybe that is how it was made.

olikara · 18th November 2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

A small hole in the blade for the nail to go through would be enough, and the head of the nail and the rest of the nail could be hammered flat on either side of the blade, so both would look like if the hole had been bigger. Maybe that is how it was made.

Yes, Jens. Your hypothesis makes sense.

Gonzalo G · 19th November 2008, 04:21 AM

Jens, that point of the location of the city interests me. I have a document from M. H. Panhwar which states that: "Capital of Sindh was shifted from Alore to Mansura Yazid Ali Kalbi. Archaeological evidence so far collected shows that Brahmanabad and Mansura are two names of same city." Could it be another Mansura? Also, "The Arabs did not destroy Brahmanabad and therefore it should have survived side by side. Arab travelers Ibn Haukal and Istakhri who visited in 951 AD have said in Sindhi, Mansura is called Brahmanabad, (Bamiwan, which is close to Babanwa or Brahman, Bamra or
Banbhriya) showing thereby that the town had retained its earlier name among the local populance, but Arabs called Mansura." I don´t have more information, so if you can, please give me more references to check. I have many black holes in this area.
Regards

Gonzalo

Jens Nordlunde · 19th November 2008, 12:19 PM

Gonzalo, I have tried to Google, and there seem to be quite a number of places called Mansura. I don’t know anything more than I have told you so far, as it all comes from the book I quoted, but I have a map showing a town called Mansura. If it is this town, I doubt very much that it is a ruin town any more.

ariel · 19th November 2008, 10:54 PM

What is interesting to me, is the open statement of al-Kindi that wootz was coming to Persia from India.
We are accustomed to the statements about wootz being a genuinely Iranian invention, that Indian masters learned their craft only late (16-17th centuries) etc, etc. In fact, the noun wootz is always preceeded by an adjective Persian, implying the purely Iranian origin: from the beginning to the end. The contribution of Indian metallurgists is not even glossed over; it is buried in silence. Al-Kindi's book is cited very frequently, but the passage cited here is usually conveniently omitted.
In fact, what we learn from here and from Indian sources
http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~woot...tage/WOOTZ.htm
is that wootz was manufactured in India and that Iranians just bought the output en masse and re-sold it elsewhere. No doubt, Iranians achieved the highest levels of proficiency in manufacturing blades from Indian wootz, but the honor of inventing and manufacturing wootz should rightly belong to India.

Gonzalo G · 20th November 2008, 08:36 PM

I agree, India and probably Central Asia. Though, there are latter sources on the manofacture of wootz. I can´t still put my hands on books like Persian Steel and Persian Metal Technology. Jens is decades ahead of me on this readings. But I think we cannot be conclusive about iranian wootz production, and archaeometallurgy is still in it´s beginnings. I still do not read Manouchehr´s book..too expensive for me, taking on account the caravan post services EUA-México additional cost.

Jens, thank you very much for your input.

19th November 2008, 12:19 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gonzalo, I have tried to Google, and there seem to be quite a number of places called Mansura. I don’t know anything more than I have told you so far, as it all comes from the book I quoted, but I have a map showing a town called Mansura. If it is this town, I doubt very much that it is a ruin town any more. Attached Images

18th November 2008, 01:22 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I don’t know if it is the first written reference, but it is the oldest one I have seen, that is why I found it interesting. It has now and again been discussed if the round gold/copper/braze marking on blades would make the blades weaker. However the mention of nails made me think that the hole in the blade does not have to be very big. A small hole in the blade for the nail to go through would be enough, and the head of the nail and the rest of the nail could be hammered flat on either side of the blade, so both would look like if the hole had been bigger. Maybe that is how it was made.

19th November 2008, 04:21 AM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Jens, that point of the location of the city interests me. I have a document from M. H. Panhwar which states that: "Capital of Sindh was shifted from Alore to Mansura Yazid Ali Kalbi. Archaeological evidence so far collected shows that Brahmanabad and Mansura are two names of same city." Could it be another Mansura? Also, "The Arabs did not destroy Brahmanabad and therefore it should have survived side by side. Arab travelers Ibn Haukal and Istakhri who visited in 951 AD have said in Sindhi, Mansura is called Brahmanabad, (Bamiwan, which is close to Babanwa or Brahman, Bamra or Banbhriya) showing thereby that the town had retained its earlier name among the local populance, but Arabs called Mansura." I don´t have more information, so if you can, please give me more references to check. I have many black holes in this area. Regards Gonzalo

19th November 2008, 10:54 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What is interesting to me, is the open statement of al-Kindi that wootz was coming to Persia from India. We are accustomed to the statements about wootz being a genuinely Iranian invention, that Indian masters learned their craft only late (16-17th centuries) etc, etc. In fact, the noun wootz is always preceeded by an adjective Persian, implying the purely Iranian origin: from the beginning to the end. The contribution of Indian metallurgists is not even glossed over; it is buried in silence. Al-Kindi's book is cited very frequently, but the passage cited here is usually conveniently omitted. In fact, what we learn from here and from Indian sources http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~woot...tage/WOOTZ.htm is that wootz was manufactured in India and that Iranians just bought the output en masse and re-sold it elsewhere. No doubt, Iranians achieved the highest levels of proficiency in manufacturing blades from Indian wootz, but the honor of inventing and manufacturing wootz should rightly belong to India.

20th November 2008, 08:36 PM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I agree, India and probably Central Asia. Though, there are latter sources on the manofacture of wootz. I can´t still put my hands on books like Persian Steel and Persian Metal Technology. Jens is decades ahead of me on this readings. But I think we cannot be conclusive about iranian wootz production, and archaeometallurgy is still in it´s beginnings. I still do not read Manouchehr´s book..too expensive for me, taking on account the caravan post services EUA-México additional cost. Jens, thank you very much for your input.