Spanish Rapiers, a Bilbo FYC.

fearn · 14th November 2008, 10:13 PM

Hi Atlantia,

I hadn't checked this thread until now.

So far as the flowers go, we've got another one of those annoying, eight-petaled sword flowers again on one side, and a three-petaled thingie on the other.

My guess on the three-petaled thingie is that it's a side view of an iris (link to pic of spanish iris, which is appropriately called Iris xiphium).

As for the eight petaled flower, I just posted about a similar figure on that serpentine rapier thingie (link). The short answer is that there aren't any eight-petaled simple flowers. However, there are, potentially, eight petaled composite flowers in the sunflower family (Asteraceae, aka the Compositae). So, it could be a margerite, a daisy, or some such. It's not a true sunflower. OTOH, the Asteraceae is one of the biggest families of flowering plants in the world, so asking, "which one is it?" could take a long time to answer.

It also could be some sort of symbolic flower, as Katana suggested for the undulating rapier.

Hope this helps a little.

My 0.002 centavos,

F

Gonzalo G · 16th November 2008, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

It also could be some sort of symbolic flower, as Katana suggested for the undulating rapier.

Hope this helps a little.

My 0.002 centavos,

F

I think you have a point in this, Fearn. This could be a matter of a research. I don´t believe those decorations were only sudden inspirations of somebody.
Regards

Gonzalo

Atlantia · 16th November 2008, 03:13 PM

Good afternoon Gentlemen,
Welcome Fearn, thanks for your help. I'll see if I can draw the designs on paper and upload them in a bit.

Hugely greatful for your help guys.

Atlantia · 16th November 2008, 06:05 PM

The border of 'petals'? is the same on both sides. The designs are crudely executed but quite complex. Excuse my scribbles, they do make the designs clearer than the photos do. I think it defiantely looks like a sunflower. Any thoughts as to why or when?
Thanks
Gene

fearn · 16th November 2008, 06:24 PM

Hi Atlantia,

Interesting, and thanks for the sketches. Oddly enough, that "iris" looks more like the fruits of a larkspur (see first image) or even wolfsbane fruits (see second image) than an iris.

As for the sunflower, I'll repeat my first position: it's a relative of a sunflower, but I'm not convinced it's a sunflower. The reason I'm not convinced is two-fold: first, sunflowers tend to have more than eight petals (they're technically ray flowers), and second, they tend to have petals of a single color, where the petals on the rapier flower have a band halfway up. That band is characteristic of many other species of sunflower relatives, so I tend to think it's not a sunflower.

One thing I think we can ignore is the leaves under the flowers or fruits. Since they're the same for both flowers (unlike in nature), I think they're just a standardized leaf shape, without other meaning.

Best,

F

Atlantia · 16th November 2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Atlantia,

Interesting, and thanks for the sketches. Oddly enough, that "iris" looks more like the fruits of a larkspur (see first image) or even wolfsbane fruits (see second image) than an iris.

As for the sunflower, I'll repeat my first position: it's a relative of a sunflower, but I'm not convinced it's a sunflower. The reason I'm not convinced is two-fold: first, sunflowers tend to have more than eight petals (they're technically ray flowers), and second, they tend to have petals of a single color, where the petals on the rapier flower have a band halfway up. That band is characteristic of many other species of sunflower relatives, so I tend to think it's not a sunflower.

One thing I think we can ignore is the leaves under the flowers or fruits. Since they're the same for both flowers (unlike in nature), I think they're just a standardized leaf shape, without other meaning.

Best,

F

Ah I see,
Great points Fearn, I hadn't made the connection with the inner patterning on the petals. And of course (doh!) Sunflowers have LOTS of petals, lol, not just eight! Thanks for a new and clearly clearer perspective on this, I think I've had it so many years, I cant see the wood for the trees!
I'd always juat thought the smaller design was the flower 'closed', but you think its something else entirely?

fearn · 17th November 2008, 08:25 PM

Hi Atlantia,

It's always fun trying to figure these things out. So far as the smaller design goes, I'm pretty sure that it's not the closed form of the big one. In general, the bud of the sunflower family looks something like an artichoke (not surprisingly, because artichokes are distant relatives of sunflowers), so that three-parted whatever-it-is is definitely not a closed sunflower.

As for what it is, I've already made my guesses above. It would have been nice for it to have been an iris, because irises do show up in heraldry. One good example is the fleur-de-lys. That pattern really looks like the fruits of some members of the buttercup family, such as larkspurs or wolfsbane. These are semi-reasonable guesses, as the designer could easily find these fruits in a garden or a meadow near the shop. WHY someone sould choose such a pattern really puzzles me. Larkspurs and wolfsbane are fairly poisonous, so there might be some symbolism there. There might also be some family name association. Whatever it is, I'm currently puzzled.

Feel free to keep bugging me about it. Perhaps the right question will shake loose a better answer.

Best,

F

16th November 2008, 06:24 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Atlantia, Interesting, and thanks for the sketches. Oddly enough, that "iris" looks more like the fruits of a larkspur (see first image) or even wolfsbane fruits (see second image) than an iris. As for the sunflower, I'll repeat my first position: it's a relative of a sunflower, but I'm not convinced it's a sunflower. The reason I'm not convinced is two-fold: first, sunflowers tend to have more than eight petals (they're technically ray flowers), and second, they tend to have petals of a single color, where the petals on the rapier flower have a band halfway up. That band is characteristic of many other species of sunflower relatives, so I tend to think it's not a sunflower. One thing I think we can ignore is the leaves under the flowers or fruits. Since they're the same for both flowers (unlike in nature), I think they're just a standardized leaf shape, without other meaning. Best, F Attached Images

14th November 2008, 10:13 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Atlantia, I hadn't checked this thread until now. So far as the flowers go, we've got another one of those annoying, eight-petaled sword flowers again on one side, and a three-petaled thingie on the other. My guess on the three-petaled thingie is that it's a side view of an iris (link to pic of spanish iris, which is appropriately called Iris xiphium). As for the eight petaled flower, I just posted about a similar figure on that serpentine rapier thingie (link). The short answer is that there aren't any eight-petaled simple flowers. However, there are, potentially, eight petaled composite flowers in the sunflower family (Asteraceae, aka the Compositae). So, it could be a margerite, a daisy, or some such. It's not a true sunflower. OTOH, the Asteraceae is one of the biggest families of flowering plants in the world, so asking, "which one is it?" could take a long time to answer. It also could be some sort of symbolic flower, as Katana suggested for the undulating rapier. Hope this helps a little. My 0.002 centavos, F

16th November 2008, 03:13 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Good afternoon Gentlemen, Welcome Fearn, thanks for your help. I'll see if I can draw the designs on paper and upload them in a bit. Hugely greatful for your help guys.

16th November 2008, 06:05 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The border of 'petals'? is the same on both sides. The designs are crudely executed but quite complex. Excuse my scribbles, they do make the designs clearer than the photos do. I think it defiantely looks like a sunflower. Any thoughts as to why or when? Thanks Gene

17th November 2008, 08:25 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Atlantia, It's always fun trying to figure these things out. So far as the smaller design goes, I'm pretty sure that it's not the closed form of the big one. In general, the bud of the sunflower family looks something like an artichoke (not surprisingly, because artichokes are distant relatives of sunflowers), so that three-parted whatever-it-is is definitely not a closed sunflower. As for what it is, I've already made my guesses above. It would have been nice for it to have been an iris, because irises do show up in heraldry. One good example is the fleur-de-lys. That pattern really looks like the fruits of some members of the buttercup family, such as larkspurs or wolfsbane. These are semi-reasonable guesses, as the designer could easily find these fruits in a garden or a meadow near the shop. WHY someone sould choose such a pattern really puzzles me. Larkspurs and wolfsbane are fairly poisonous, so there might be some symbolism there. There might also be some family name association. Whatever it is, I'm currently puzzled. Feel free to keep bugging me about it. Perhaps the right question will shake loose a better answer. Best, F