French mameluke? first batch of images

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2008, 06:07 PM

Thank you so much Jean, and your explanation on the issue numbers on the hilt are very helpful. This clarifies the idea procedural protocol that would track the issue history of the sword itself.

All the best,
Jim

I wanted to add some notes to this thread pertaining to sabres of the early 19th century that I hope might add some related perspective.

The early part of the 19th century seems extremely interesting as far as the variations of sword forms. The Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt produced some most interesting influences in military weapons in British swords, much as in degree in French swords. The Mamluk warriors deeply curved sabres must have brought interest in the blades, as the hilts distinctly influenced both British and French officers sabre hilts after the campaigns.

In British swords, the M1803 flank company officers swords seem to have had unusually parabolic blades, though I have never understood exactly why that blade feature was so favored by them. With the M1803, the usual flowing lionhead mane on the hilt with one example I had, carried Egyptian theme with a sphinx type mane on the lionhead. I have seen certain British light cavalry sabres of the earlier M1796 form, in seemingly prototype sense, with deeply parabolic blades and even more unusual with rod type pipeback.

In a recent personal communication there is an example of a British officers mameluke sabre, as shown in Robson "Swords of the British Army" as the pattern 1831, which is mounted with extremely parabolic shamshir blade and mounted in Ottoman type scabbard with slit back for access of this dramatic blade. This in my opinion was likely custom mounted for a British officer in probably southern Arabia, Gulf of Aden, then British occupied and where many military outfitters furbished such custom weapons.

While it appears these fashion effects might not apply with this French sabre, I wanted to illustrate some of the contemporary instances with British officers swords of the period.

celtan · 6th November 2008, 01:17 AM

Hi Guys,

Obviously, Jean and Jim know much, much, so much more than I do about swords, that I can only accept their opinions as facts.

OTOH, this sabre's spine inscriptiosn are very clear, and the width/spacing of the brief fuller near the spine is uniform and consistent across its length. So, whoever did the curving truly did an outstanding job.

Is this a difficult procedure? Is it cheap? Can anyone do it? Is there an economical benefit for doing it, specially after paying a knowledgeable armourer for his work?

Why would anyone do it?

Could this be an experimental 1846 blade, mounted in a surplus 1822 hilt?

Questions, questions...Sounds like another Sherlock Holms mistery, like the old Danish Hussars Sabre.

Fun!

I'll take a macro pic of the poincon, and submit same soon.

Best regards, and do missbehave !

M

Jean B. · 6th November 2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Guys,

Obviously, Jean and Jim know much, much, so much more than I do about swords, that I can only accept their opinions as facts.

M

Hi Manolo,

I would like to give you one advise I am 100% sure it is a good one: for the sake of research, do NEVER, EVER accept an opinion as a fact if you feel you can discover something more. Research is indeed the fun part of collecting. Believe me, I would be more than happy if you come back to me in a few months saying: Hey Jean, I found evidences you were wrong, look at this...Sure, I would be happy to learn something new. I gave my personal opinion supported by observations but it is certainly not gospel.

All the best and....happy research!
Jean

Peu importe la destination si le voyage est plaisant.

celtan · 7th November 2008, 02:25 AM

"Peu importe la destination si le voyage est plaisant." Jean

Wouldn't that eminently apply to Life and Death?

Best

M

celtan · 8th November 2008, 11:03 PM

Another scythe...

Russian?

fernando · 8th November 2008, 11:08 PM

Amazing ... and fascinating.
The thing is so curved that the suspension rings are on the contrary side of the scabbard.
... no wonder

Fernando

celtan · 10th November 2008, 02:46 PM

BTW, what's the average length for the French M1822 saber blade?
This one has a 34 3/4" long blade, width 1.25" at the ricasso, and .75" near the rounded tip.

The blade was originally even longer, back before the tip was rounded.

M

fernando · 10th November 2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Another scythe...

Russian?

Bizarre

If it had the edge by the inside, it would be useful for cutting grass

.
Where did you get this picture ... is it confidential ?
Fernando

celtan · 17th November 2008, 01:05 AM

Hi Fernando,

No, it's not confidential at all, I plumb forgot.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Bizarre

If it had the edge by the inside, it would be useful for cutting grass

.
Where did you get this picture ... is it confidential ?
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2008, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Another scythe...

Russian?

Unbelievable!!! I have seen parabolic blades before.....but NEVER one this dramatic!
Most definitely Russian, I believe these as well as many of thier regulation patterns were based on captured French Napoleonic weapons (I dont have my copy of Mollo handy, "Russian Military Swords" Eugene Mollo).
I believe this hilt was based on the French model ANXI.....but have no idea what was behind this blade.
The carrying rings are on the opposed side as was characteristic of thier military swords, as well as shashkas.

All best regards,
Jim

8th November 2008, 11:03 PM	#5
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Another scythe... Russian? Attached Images

4th November 2008, 06:07 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Thank you so much Jean, and your explanation on the issue numbers on the hilt are very helpful. This clarifies the idea procedural protocol that would track the issue history of the sword itself. All the best, Jim I wanted to add some notes to this thread pertaining to sabres of the early 19th century that I hope might add some related perspective. The early part of the 19th century seems extremely interesting as far as the variations of sword forms. The Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt produced some most interesting influences in military weapons in British swords, much as in degree in French swords. The Mamluk warriors deeply curved sabres must have brought interest in the blades, as the hilts distinctly influenced both British and French officers sabre hilts after the campaigns. In British swords, the M1803 flank company officers swords seem to have had unusually parabolic blades, though I have never understood exactly why that blade feature was so favored by them. With the M1803, the usual flowing lionhead mane on the hilt with one example I had, carried Egyptian theme with a sphinx type mane on the lionhead. I have seen certain British light cavalry sabres of the earlier M1796 form, in seemingly prototype sense, with deeply parabolic blades and even more unusual with rod type pipeback. In a recent personal communication there is an example of a British officers mameluke sabre, as shown in Robson "Swords of the British Army" as the pattern 1831, which is mounted with extremely parabolic shamshir blade and mounted in Ottoman type scabbard with slit back for access of this dramatic blade. This in my opinion was likely custom mounted for a British officer in probably southern Arabia, Gulf of Aden, then British occupied and where many military outfitters furbished such custom weapons. While it appears these fashion effects might not apply with this French sabre, I wanted to illustrate some of the contemporary instances with British officers swords of the period.

6th November 2008, 01:17 AM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Guys, Obviously, Jean and Jim know much, much, so much more than I do about swords, that I can only accept their opinions as facts. OTOH, this sabre's spine inscriptiosn are very clear, and the width/spacing of the brief fuller near the spine is uniform and consistent across its length. So, whoever did the curving truly did an outstanding job. Is this a difficult procedure? Is it cheap? Can anyone do it? Is there an economical benefit for doing it, specially after paying a knowledgeable armourer for his work? Why would anyone do it? Could this be an experimental 1846 blade, mounted in a surplus 1822 hilt? Questions, questions...Sounds like another Sherlock Holms mistery, like the old Danish Hussars Sabre. Fun! I'll take a macro pic of the poincon, and submit same soon. Best regards, and do missbehave ! M

7th November 2008, 02:25 AM	#4
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	"Peu importe la destination si le voyage est plaisant." Jean Wouldn't that eminently apply to Life and Death? Best M

8th November 2008, 11:08 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Amazing ... and fascinating. The thing is so curved that the suspension rings are on the contrary side of the scabbard. ... no wonder Fernando

10th November 2008, 02:46 PM	#7
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	BTW, what's the average length for the French M1822 saber blade? This one has a 34 3/4" long blade, width 1.25" at the ricasso, and .75" near the rounded tip. The blade was originally even longer, back before the tip was rounded. M