Old knife with military markings -- ideas?

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 10:06 PM

Note, too, that guardlessness is common (though not universal) on the pointed ones.

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 10:09 PM

Ooh! Rick! Where on Luzon?

Rick · 10th April 2005, 11:29 PM

Kinda busy right now Tom , I'll pull the paperwork and post it soon . Or you could do a Swap forum search ; I have offered them for sale a couple of times with no takers . There is probably info there , may be on the old forum , not sure .

Ian · 10th April 2005, 11:52 PM

Guys:

I hear what you are saying, but you have not addressed the points that bother me about the attribution of this knife to the northern Philippines.

1. Do any of your examples have a flat side and an opposite side that has been ground to the edge (NOT chisel ground)?

2. Do any of your examples have a hilt with an ovoid (pear-shaped, tear drop) cross section?

3. Who among us has the experience to say this does or does not come from another Spanish colonial setting?

Our substantial familiarity with Philippines weapons outweighs our collective ignorance about other Spanish colonial weapons. When I posted this one on SFI, Juan Perez (who moderates the Spanish language part of that forum) suggested other Spanish colonial origins as possibilities. My concern is that we are comfortable with what we know about familiar topics, but we have little understanding of what we don't know about unfamiliar topics. That is a form of bias (or self-deception) for which Ruel would rightly chastise us -- it is one of the fallacies of inductive reasoning.

Tom, I will rephrase some of my questions and be more specific in the next few days. Not a lot of time right now to write at length. In the meanwhile, would you look through some of the dozens of pictures of Philippine weapons from the Visayas and Luzon on this site, and point out ones that illustrate the transitions you mention? I'm thinking we are talking at cross purposes on some of these issues.

I will also try to post some better pictures of the hilt and blade of the knife above in the next couple of days. I'm away from home at the moment.

Ian.

Rick · 10th April 2005, 11:59 PM

Hi Ian , respectfully ,

#1. Yes

#2. Yes

#3. Guaranteed my example is a Philippine bringback from the Span Am war era . I would have to be a time traveler to know more .

One more thing , this bolo has a carabao horn hilt , what other Spanish colony had Water Buffalo , Mexico , anywhere in S.A. ?
And to add even one more detail , consider the scabbard that is shown next to the bolo .

As Meatloaf's song title says : 2 out of 3 Ain't bad .

I'll be glad to ship you this example for personal examination if you wish , just PM me .

Rick

tom hyle · 11th April 2005, 01:04 AM

I completely do not understand what you mean by a blade that is flat on one side and an opposite side that is ground to the edge not being chisel ground; sounds like chisel ground to me; can you describe the cross section differently, or clarify the difference?

tom hyle · 11th April 2005, 01:16 AM

Ian, I've private messaged you some examples from a commercial website

I may or may not be able to find them on the forum; interest in these talibons and talibesques (a made up word, I hope you understand) is something that hardly existed in N American even say 2 years ago.....

zelbone · 11th April 2005, 02:59 AM

Ian, there's nothing unusual about Luzon origin sandata with ferrules on both ends of the hilt as well as having an ovoid (egg-shaped) hilt profile. I've seen several bolos with hilts with these features and most likely more Tagalog than Ilocano, Papangan, or Pangasinan. The more horse-hoof styles seem to come from these areas further away from Manila. As for the "pseudo-chiseled" edge blade profile you are refering to with the short bevel as opposed to the really wide bevel found in the Visayas, many swords in Luzon have blades with these especially around Batangas.

One more comment; as for the chopped-tip matulis blade, yes many blades had their tips chopped for a variety of reasons. However, many blades were actually forged into that specific shape for a good reason: at the end of the 19th C. there was a law prohibiting pointed bolos by the Spanish rule in the Philippines. Of course not everyone follows the rules especially those further away from the central government, but many bolos had their points chopped or were forged with a blunt tip. This doesn't mean a chopped-tip bolo is only a "working" bolo. Sure some resemble the Visayan espading, but many are actually fighting swords. Among the bolos in the pictures I've enclosed is a blunt tip sword with a bone hilt and double brass ferrules. The octagonal hilt is ovoid in profile with a nice bone hilt...too nice for a "working" bolo. The blade is 20 inches long and slender with a blunt (i.e. "legal" for that time period) tip. This is an arnisador's sword and handles like one as well.

The other "chopped" sword has a more traditional horsehoof hilt. Notice that both swords have fitted tooled leather scabbards that follow the profile of the swords showing that they were never cut down. The other sword with the egg-shaped hilt and double ferrules is a genuine old matulis. The dagger has double ferrules as well, but also has the flat back and short bevel blade you are referring to.

10th April 2005, 11:59 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi Ian , respectfully , #1. Yes #2. Yes #3. Guaranteed my example is a Philippine bringback from the Span Am war era . I would have to be a time traveler to know more . One more thing , this bolo has a carabao horn hilt , what other Spanish colony had Water Buffalo , Mexico , anywhere in S.A. ? And to add even one more detail , consider the scabbard that is shown next to the bolo . As Meatloaf's song title says : 2 out of 3 Ain't bad . I'll be glad to ship you this example for personal examination if you wish , just PM me . Rick Last edited by Rick; 11th April 2005 at 12:44 AM.

11th April 2005, 02:59 AM	#8
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Ian, there's nothing unusual about Luzon origin sandata with ferrules on both ends of the hilt as well as having an ovoid (egg-shaped) hilt profile. I've seen several bolos with hilts with these features and most likely more Tagalog than Ilocano, Papangan, or Pangasinan. The more horse-hoof styles seem to come from these areas further away from Manila. As for the "pseudo-chiseled" edge blade profile you are refering to with the short bevel as opposed to the really wide bevel found in the Visayas, many swords in Luzon have blades with these especially around Batangas. One more comment; as for the chopped-tip matulis blade, yes many blades had their tips chopped for a variety of reasons. However, many blades were actually forged into that specific shape for a good reason: at the end of the 19th C. there was a law prohibiting pointed bolos by the Spanish rule in the Philippines. Of course not everyone follows the rules especially those further away from the central government, but many bolos had their points chopped or were forged with a blunt tip. This doesn't mean a chopped-tip bolo is only a "working" bolo. Sure some resemble the Visayan espading, but many are actually fighting swords. Among the bolos in the pictures I've enclosed is a blunt tip sword with a bone hilt and double brass ferrules. The octagonal hilt is ovoid in profile with a nice bone hilt...too nice for a "working" bolo. The blade is 20 inches long and slender with a blunt (i.e. "legal" for that time period) tip. This is an arnisador's sword and handles like one as well. The other "chopped" sword has a more traditional horsehoof hilt. Notice that both swords have fitted tooled leather scabbards that follow the profile of the swords showing that they were never cut down. The other sword with the egg-shaped hilt and double ferrules is a genuine old matulis. The dagger has double ferrules as well, but also has the flat back and short bevel blade you are referring to. Attached Images

10th April 2005, 10:06 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Note, too, that guardlessness is common (though not universal) on the pointed ones.

10th April 2005, 10:09 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ooh! Rick! Where on Luzon? Last edited by tom hyle; 10th April 2005 at 10:10 PM. Reason: grammer...grammar....augh!

10th April 2005, 11:29 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Kinda busy right now Tom , I'll pull the paperwork and post it soon . Or you could do a Swap forum search ; I have offered them for sale a couple of times with no takers . There is probably info there , may be on the old forum , not sure .

10th April 2005, 11:52 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Guys: I hear what you are saying, but you have not addressed the points that bother me about the attribution of this knife to the northern Philippines. 1. Do any of your examples have a flat side and an opposite side that has been ground to the edge (NOT chisel ground)? 2. Do any of your examples have a hilt with an ovoid (pear-shaped, tear drop) cross section? 3. Who among us has the experience to say this does or does not come from another Spanish colonial setting? Our substantial familiarity with Philippines weapons outweighs our collective ignorance about other Spanish colonial weapons. When I posted this one on SFI, Juan Perez (who moderates the Spanish language part of that forum) suggested other Spanish colonial origins as possibilities. My concern is that we are comfortable with what we know about familiar topics, but we have little understanding of what we don't know about unfamiliar topics. That is a form of bias (or self-deception) for which Ruel would rightly chastise us -- it is one of the fallacies of inductive reasoning. Tom, I will rephrase some of my questions and be more specific in the next few days. Not a lot of time right now to write at length. In the meanwhile, would you look through some of the dozens of pictures of Philippine weapons from the Visayas and Luzon on this site, and point out ones that illustrate the transitions you mention? I'm thinking we are talking at cross purposes on some of these issues. I will also try to post some better pictures of the hilt and blade of the knife above in the next couple of days. I'm away from home at the moment. Ian.

11th April 2005, 01:04 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I completely do not understand what you mean by a blade that is flat on one side and an opposite side that is ground to the edge not being chisel ground; sounds like chisel ground to me; can you describe the cross section differently, or clarify the difference?

11th April 2005, 01:16 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ian, I've private messaged you some examples from a commercial website I may or may not be able to find them on the forum; interest in these talibons and talibesques (a made up word, I hope you understand) is something that hardly existed in N American even say 2 years ago.....