Old knife with military markings -- ideas?

Rick · 10th April 2005, 09:46 PM

Hi Guys , all three of those bolos came from the same source , a member of the Washington State Volunteers who served exclusively on Luzon . They came with a xerox of his discharge including a list of the battles and skirmishes he had been involved in .
The horsehead hilted one we can wonder about ; the other two have the same through tang construction and ferruling as your piece Ian .

I'd say you can be pretty safe in attributing this bolo to Luzon .

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 10:06 PM

Note, too, that guardlessness is common (though not universal) on the pointed ones.

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 10:09 PM

Ooh! Rick! Where on Luzon?

Rick · 10th April 2005, 11:29 PM

Kinda busy right now Tom , I'll pull the paperwork and post it soon . Or you could do a Swap forum search ; I have offered them for sale a couple of times with no takers . There is probably info there , may be on the old forum , not sure .

Ian · 10th April 2005, 11:52 PM

Guys:

I hear what you are saying, but you have not addressed the points that bother me about the attribution of this knife to the northern Philippines.

1. Do any of your examples have a flat side and an opposite side that has been ground to the edge (NOT chisel ground)?

2. Do any of your examples have a hilt with an ovoid (pear-shaped, tear drop) cross section?

3. Who among us has the experience to say this does or does not come from another Spanish colonial setting?

Our substantial familiarity with Philippines weapons outweighs our collective ignorance about other Spanish colonial weapons. When I posted this one on SFI, Juan Perez (who moderates the Spanish language part of that forum) suggested other Spanish colonial origins as possibilities. My concern is that we are comfortable with what we know about familiar topics, but we have little understanding of what we don't know about unfamiliar topics. That is a form of bias (or self-deception) for which Ruel would rightly chastise us -- it is one of the fallacies of inductive reasoning.

Tom, I will rephrase some of my questions and be more specific in the next few days. Not a lot of time right now to write at length. In the meanwhile, would you look through some of the dozens of pictures of Philippine weapons from the Visayas and Luzon on this site, and point out ones that illustrate the transitions you mention? I'm thinking we are talking at cross purposes on some of these issues.

I will also try to post some better pictures of the hilt and blade of the knife above in the next couple of days. I'm away from home at the moment.

Ian.

Rick · 10th April 2005, 11:59 PM

Hi Ian , respectfully ,

#1. Yes

#2. Yes

#3. Guaranteed my example is a Philippine bringback from the Span Am war era . I would have to be a time traveler to know more .

One more thing , this bolo has a carabao horn hilt , what other Spanish colony had Water Buffalo , Mexico , anywhere in S.A. ?
And to add even one more detail , consider the scabbard that is shown next to the bolo .

As Meatloaf's song title says : 2 out of 3 Ain't bad .

I'll be glad to ship you this example for personal examination if you wish , just PM me .

Rick

tom hyle · 11th April 2005, 01:04 AM

I completely do not understand what you mean by a blade that is flat on one side and an opposite side that is ground to the edge not being chisel ground; sounds like chisel ground to me; can you describe the cross section differently, or clarify the difference?

tom hyle · 11th April 2005, 01:16 AM

Ian, I've private messaged you some examples from a commercial website

I may or may not be able to find them on the forum; interest in these talibons and talibesques (a made up word, I hope you understand) is something that hardly existed in N American even say 2 years ago.....

10th April 2005, 11:59 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi Ian , respectfully , #1. Yes #2. Yes #3. Guaranteed my example is a Philippine bringback from the Span Am war era . I would have to be a time traveler to know more . One more thing , this bolo has a carabao horn hilt , what other Spanish colony had Water Buffalo , Mexico , anywhere in S.A. ? And to add even one more detail , consider the scabbard that is shown next to the bolo . As Meatloaf's song title says : 2 out of 3 Ain't bad . I'll be glad to ship you this example for personal examination if you wish , just PM me . Rick Last edited by Rick; 11th April 2005 at 12:44 AM.

10th April 2005, 09:46 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi Guys , all three of those bolos came from the same source , a member of the Washington State Volunteers who served exclusively on Luzon . They came with a xerox of his discharge including a list of the battles and skirmishes he had been involved in . The horsehead hilted one we can wonder about ; the other two have the same through tang construction and ferruling as your piece Ian . I'd say you can be pretty safe in attributing this bolo to Luzon .

10th April 2005, 10:06 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Note, too, that guardlessness is common (though not universal) on the pointed ones.

10th April 2005, 10:09 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ooh! Rick! Where on Luzon? Last edited by tom hyle; 10th April 2005 at 10:10 PM. Reason: grammer...grammar....augh!

10th April 2005, 11:29 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Kinda busy right now Tom , I'll pull the paperwork and post it soon . Or you could do a Swap forum search ; I have offered them for sale a couple of times with no takers . There is probably info there , may be on the old forum , not sure .

10th April 2005, 11:52 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Guys: I hear what you are saying, but you have not addressed the points that bother me about the attribution of this knife to the northern Philippines. 1. Do any of your examples have a flat side and an opposite side that has been ground to the edge (NOT chisel ground)? 2. Do any of your examples have a hilt with an ovoid (pear-shaped, tear drop) cross section? 3. Who among us has the experience to say this does or does not come from another Spanish colonial setting? Our substantial familiarity with Philippines weapons outweighs our collective ignorance about other Spanish colonial weapons. When I posted this one on SFI, Juan Perez (who moderates the Spanish language part of that forum) suggested other Spanish colonial origins as possibilities. My concern is that we are comfortable with what we know about familiar topics, but we have little understanding of what we don't know about unfamiliar topics. That is a form of bias (or self-deception) for which Ruel would rightly chastise us -- it is one of the fallacies of inductive reasoning. Tom, I will rephrase some of my questions and be more specific in the next few days. Not a lot of time right now to write at length. In the meanwhile, would you look through some of the dozens of pictures of Philippine weapons from the Visayas and Luzon on this site, and point out ones that illustrate the transitions you mention? I'm thinking we are talking at cross purposes on some of these issues. I will also try to post some better pictures of the hilt and blade of the knife above in the next couple of days. I'm away from home at the moment. Ian.

11th April 2005, 01:04 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I completely do not understand what you mean by a blade that is flat on one side and an opposite side that is ground to the edge not being chisel ground; sounds like chisel ground to me; can you describe the cross section differently, or clarify the difference?

11th April 2005, 01:16 AM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ian, I've private messaged you some examples from a commercial website I may or may not be able to find them on the forum; interest in these talibons and talibesques (a made up word, I hope you understand) is something that hardly existed in N American even say 2 years ago.....