My first kris :)

Bill · 23rd October 2008, 03:24 PM

Hi Miguel,
Interesting kris the marine has. It looks like it has 2 guards & is a watered blade. No idea about his contest, if it is PR stunt or was a real event. I do know that there is a code in some places in the PI where sword duels or assassinations with a sword have some acceptance where use of a firearm would not be acceptable. Apparently retaliation (code) limited to means of prior incident.
Yes there is no doubt that the US military & varies general instructions & eventually the executive order in 1911 of disarmament changed a good generation or two of the Moro traditions.
While I doubt swords (manufacture/use) totally disappeared, their revival after WWII was altered. Where a farmer or someone in a remote village would be concerned about a blade for functions of both work & a weapon, a city person would be more concerned about a symbol of present status. I'd consider both ethnographic & each a part of history. While we generally consider "WWII" blades as cerimonial, I'd also guess that a few of them settled disagreements.
The commercial aspect has been around since the Spanish but post WWII also saw a explosion in tourist items. Plenty of raw materials (damaged/abandoned equipment) and plenty of customers (service men), who didn't spend enough time, in the PI, to know the genuine items.
So there is a blur between ethnographic & tourist. Some is blatant, while some, as can be seen in the present posts, is a personal opinion.

Bill · 23rd October 2008, 05:16 PM

Here is a link to some great photos by Bobby Timonera. He posts here occasionally, so maybe he will comment.

http://www.pbase.com/timonera/tugaya&page=all

migueldiaz · 24th October 2008, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Hi Miguel,
Interesting kris the marine has ...

Hi Bill,

Thanks for those insights on that reported sword duel, among other thoughts you shared to us.

Thanks also for the link on Bobby Timonera's photos. I've heard too about that place (Tugaya) where there's a lot of craftsmen doing the tourist pieces. I should definitely check that out one of these days ... with the objective of stumbling into a real antique piece in one of the shops there.

migueldiaz · 24th October 2008, 01:00 PM

My long-time interest has really been on the history of WW2, and the European theater in particular.

Visiting the West Point Museum (New York) one day [in 2007], I got amazed at the impact the Moros had made on the US military, as evidenced by the artifacts displayed there.

That fanned my interest in Philippine weapons, and the Moro blades in particular. Below are the pics I took at said museum.

On the other pics of the blades of the Assyrian, Persian, etc., I'll just start another thread on that.

apolaki · 25th October 2008, 02:44 AM

wow! that hand cannon is interesting.. so we had such a weapon back in the 15th century = 1400's?

migueldiaz · 26th October 2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolaki

wow! that hand cannon is interesting.. so we had such a weapon back in the 15th century = 1400's?

Apolaki, that's possible I think.

And that's because the ancient Filipinos were in contact with the Chinese, long before the Spaniards and other Europeans came (in the mid-1500's).

And we all know that gunpowder originated in China.

So yes, we should feel proud that our grandfathers did not confine themselves to blade weapons! Remember also that the Filipino blacksmith Panday Pira (1483-1576) was an established cannon maker in Manila, again long before the Europeans came.

migueldiaz · 26th October 2008, 11:06 AM

First of all, thanks again to all who have supported my new addiction, I mean addition

, to my humble collection

Can I ask a follow up question, please?

Is the number of waves in an authentic kris supposedly odd and not even, or perhaps that is not necessarily the case?

Because in Herbert Krieger's (1926) description of krisses found in the now-Smithsonian Institute, per Krieger's textual description of five krisses, in fact three out of five have even-numbered waves.

Thanks in advance.

David · 26th October 2008, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Is the number of waves in an authentic kris supposedly odd and not even, or perhaps that is not necessarily the case?

Because in Herbert Krieger's (1926) description of krisses found in the now-Smithsonian Institute, per Krieger's textual description of five krisses, in fact three out of five have even-numbered waves.

Krieger probably did not count correctly or did not take into account blade erosion that would make the kris appear to have one less wave.

As far as i know kris and keris always have an odd wave count.

24th October 2008, 01:00 PM	#4
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	My long-time interest has really been on the history of WW2, and the European theater in particular. Visiting the West Point Museum (New York) one day [in 2007], I got amazed at the impact the Moros had made on the US military, as evidenced by the artifacts displayed there. That fanned my interest in Philippine weapons, and the Moro blades in particular. Below are the pics I took at said museum. On the other pics of the blades of the Assyrian, Persian, etc., I'll just start another thread on that. Attached Images

23rd October 2008, 03:24 PM	#1
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Hi Miguel, Interesting kris the marine has. It looks like it has 2 guards & is a watered blade. No idea about his contest, if it is PR stunt or was a real event. I do know that there is a code in some places in the PI where sword duels or assassinations with a sword have some acceptance where use of a firearm would not be acceptable. Apparently retaliation (code) limited to means of prior incident. Yes there is no doubt that the US military & varies general instructions & eventually the executive order in 1911 of disarmament changed a good generation or two of the Moro traditions. While I doubt swords (manufacture/use) totally disappeared, their revival after WWII was altered. Where a farmer or someone in a remote village would be concerned about a blade for functions of both work & a weapon, a city person would be more concerned about a symbol of present status. I'd consider both ethnographic & each a part of history. While we generally consider "WWII" blades as cerimonial, I'd also guess that a few of them settled disagreements. The commercial aspect has been around since the Spanish but post WWII also saw a explosion in tourist items. Plenty of raw materials (damaged/abandoned equipment) and plenty of customers (service men), who didn't spend enough time, in the PI, to know the genuine items. So there is a blur between ethnographic & tourist. Some is blatant, while some, as can be seen in the present posts, is a personal opinion.

23rd October 2008, 05:16 PM	#2
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Here is a link to some great photos by Bobby Timonera. He posts here occasionally, so maybe he will comment. http://www.pbase.com/timonera/tugaya&page=all

25th October 2008, 02:44 AM	#5
apolaki Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 160	wow! that hand cannon is interesting.. so we had such a weapon back in the 15th century = 1400's?

26th October 2008, 11:06 AM	#7
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	First of all, thanks again to all who have supported my new addiction, I mean addition , to my humble collection Can I ask a follow up question, please? Is the number of waves in an authentic kris supposedly odd and not even, or perhaps that is not necessarily the case? Because in Herbert Krieger's (1926) description of krisses found in the now-Smithsonian Institute, per Krieger's textual description of five krisses, in fact three out of five have even-numbered waves. Thanks in advance.