My first kris :)

Bill · 21st October 2008, 09:41 PM

Hi Kai, The stirrup on mine is nonfunctional, it is held in place by the hilt. Miguel's stirrups & mine look like the work of the same craftsman.
While some/much of the work in this time period was likely for high end consumers, it's not tourist quality or even meant as a high end souvenir.
Look at the dust cover on Moro Swords. I believe it to be from the time period, 1960's & similar craftsmanship. While these swords may not have been intended for battle, I believe they were meant for local use as dress swords or even gift/presentation. For that reason, I would not consider replacing the hilt/dress. Besides, the quality of work is really good. Some tourist pieces have the same look but no where the quality.
Sadly the sheath does give it a tourist feel but it also is likely "legit", IMO, as a example of the 1960's. While we likely will never know, it is very plausible this sword/sheath was worn, just like it is. IMO, it makes the whole package ethnographic.
The blade in my small sword is not the center piece but it is razor sharp & certainly could be used as a weapon.

kai · 22nd October 2008, 12:06 AM

Hello Bill,

Quote:

While these swords may not have been intended for battle, I believe they were meant for local use as dress swords or even gift/presentation. For that reason, I would not consider replacing the hilt/dress. Besides, the quality of work is really good.

Well, I still feel that the blade deserves better than that "ferrule" and grip.

While the whole ensemble may have been worn by a Moro (I kinda doubt it - the grip looks very new; what's the whitish stuff beneath?), the work just isn't up to the old standards. Obviously, a lot of traditional skills got lost and people seem to have focused on flashy features. It may be genuine for late 20th c. Moro culture - it falls short of traditional Moro culture though, I guess...

Regards,
Kai

Bill · 22nd October 2008, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Bill,

Obviously, a lot of traditional skills got lost and people seem to have focused on flashy features. It may be genuine for late 20th c. Moro culture - it falls short of traditional Moro culture though, I guess...

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kia, I guess that by mid 20thC the "traditional" warrior culture was going through a dramatic change in weapons & the wearing of swords was shifting in populous areas to limited special events or even wall hangers. So one would expect to see the flash & not the wear.

Hi Miguel. I've always enjoyed Manila & might take you up on your offer someday. By the way, we innocently use the word "Moro", coined from the book written by Robert Cato.

Rick · 22nd October 2008, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

By the way, we innocently use the word "Moro", coined from the book written by Robert Cato.

So do they .

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/archive/00003494/

migueldiaz · 22nd October 2008, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Hi Miguel. I've always enjoyed Manila & might take you up on your offer someday. By the way, we innocently use the word "Moro", coined from the book written by Robert Cato.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

So do they .

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/archive/00003494/

Hi Bill,

I'm serious

If you'll be in town just send me a note in advance and let's continue talking about ethnic blades over a good restaurant in Makati (the prime business district).

Hello Rick,

Thanks too for that note on the use of the word "Moro".

Actually when we were kids (am in my mid-40s now), our parents told us never to use that word to refer to our Muslim brothers in the south. It's supposed to be derogatory.

But recently and as you pointed out, it doesn't have that connotation anymore.

Like the secessionist Muslims in Mindanao used to call themselves the Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF). More recently, the organization is called MILF, in which the "M" refers to "Moro" again I think ... and yes, I know that in the US the latter acronym stands for something less altruistic!

Gonzalo G · 22nd October 2008, 04:08 AM

Yes, it means "Moro Islamic Liberation Front"....
Regards

migueldiaz · 22nd October 2008, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Yes, it means "Moro Islamic Liberation Front"....
Regards

Hello Gonzalo,

Thanks. And the Muslims in Mindanao also call themselves (and their homeland) "Bangsamoro".

"Bangsa" in Malay ("bansa" in Tagalog) means homeland or nation. So yes, "Moro" has been adapted by the Mindanao Muslims as the preferred term to describe themselves and their homeland.

Regards.

VANDOO · 22nd October 2008, 06:36 AM

I WOULD ALSO SUSPECT THE KRIS MAY BE ONE MADE UP OF A MIX OF OLDER AND NEWER PARTS. THE REASONS FOR THIS STATED BY THE OTHER FORUM MEMBERS SOUND VALID TO ME. IT COULD HAVE BEEN REFITTED WITH THE FLASHY GRIP AND SCABBARD LATER AND THE ORIGINAL IVORY POMEL AND BLADE USED. THIS WAS NOT UNCOMMON AS THE OTHER PARTS DO WEAR OUT AND NEED REPLACEING IN NORMAL USE. THESE KRIS WERE OFTEN PASSED DOWN THRU THE FAMILY AND AS WEALTH WAS AQUIRED THEY WERE OFTEN ENHANCED WITH IVORY, GOLD ,ECT. TO SHOW STATUS. THEY WERE NO LONGER USED FOR FIGHTING BUT DID HAVE A PLACE AS A FAMILY HEIRLOOM WORN ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS OR IN CEREMONIES. CONGRADULATIONS ITS A NICE ITEM

SINCE THE TERM MORO HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP I WILL ASK A QUESTION I HAVE BEEN NEEDING AN ANSWER TO. I AM WRITING A HISTORICAL FICTION STORY WHICH HAS MORO AS WELL AS DAYAK PEOPLE IN IT. I HAVE BEEN WONDERING IF IT WOULD OFFEND ANY GROUP IF I USE THE WORD MORO TO DESCRIBE MY CHARACTERS PEOPLE? IF IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE THEN I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS OF A TERM TO USE IN ITS PLACE. OR PERHAPS I SHOULD JUST MAKE UP A FICTIOUS NAME? SEEMS A SHAME THOUGH AS THEY ARE THE HERO'S OF THE STORY. THANKS IN ADVANCE.

kai · 23rd October 2008, 08:45 AM

Hello Bill,

Quote:

I guess that by mid 20thC the "traditional" warrior culture was going through a dramatic change in weapons & the wearing of swords was shifting in populous areas to limited special events or even wall hangers. So one would expect to see the flash & not the wear.

Yes, although I'm inclined to think of this as a downhill trend due to colonial powers and decadence rather than being the expression of a continuously developing culture. Much of the skills seem to have been lost after the Span.-Am. war and, especially, during the early 20th c. After WW2 there seems to have been a wave of flashy innovations regarding dress and souvenir items.

It's interesting to note though that kris were used in guerilla warfare well into the 1970s (or 80s?) which makes them one of the last traditional swords utilized in modern times...

Regards,
Kai

migueldiaz · 23rd October 2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

I guess that by mid 20thC the "traditional" warrior culture was going through a dramatic change in weapons & the wearing of swords was shifting in populous areas to limited special events or even wall hangers. So one would expect to see the flash & not the wear.

Hi Bill,

I agree of course with your observation.

Occasionally however, blade combat still happens in the battlefield, at least in Mindanao.

I myself found it strange, but please see this blog article .

On the pic [below] showing the soldier [one Sgt. Prado] holding a kris and a "ginunting", a commenter said:

"The kris pictured was one captured from a rebel who went blade to blade fighting with Sgt. Prado and lost not only his kris but his life to the [Phil. Marines Force] Recon Panday [bladesmith] meaning this man not only makes the Blade but has used it in modern day combat and in a Blade to blade duel with the spoils going to the victor. The Ginunting you have pictured is the recon version whose evolution was created from the tests of true combat. it is quite different than the civilian type Ginunting ..."

I don't personally know Sgt. Prado but I have friends who know him. Apparently he is well known here in the Philippines.

Makes me just wonder how exactly such sword fights transpire. Like did they both ran out of bullets first and then a challenge was made? Or was it spontaneous? It's for sure a very intriguing event.

And I also wonder how often such sword battles happen in the battlefield say in present day Mindanao

Bill · 23rd October 2008, 03:24 PM

Hi Miguel,
Interesting kris the marine has. It looks like it has 2 guards & is a watered blade. No idea about his contest, if it is PR stunt or was a real event. I do know that there is a code in some places in the PI where sword duels or assassinations with a sword have some acceptance where use of a firearm would not be acceptable. Apparently retaliation (code) limited to means of prior incident.
Yes there is no doubt that the US military & varies general instructions & eventually the executive order in 1911 of disarmament changed a good generation or two of the Moro traditions.
While I doubt swords (manufacture/use) totally disappeared, their revival after WWII was altered. Where a farmer or someone in a remote village would be concerned about a blade for functions of both work & a weapon, a city person would be more concerned about a symbol of present status. I'd consider both ethnographic & each a part of history. While we generally consider "WWII" blades as cerimonial, I'd also guess that a few of them settled disagreements.
The commercial aspect has been around since the Spanish but post WWII also saw a explosion in tourist items. Plenty of raw materials (damaged/abandoned equipment) and plenty of customers (service men), who didn't spend enough time, in the PI, to know the genuine items.
So there is a blur between ethnographic & tourist. Some is blatant, while some, as can be seen in the present posts, is a personal opinion.

Bill · 23rd October 2008, 05:16 PM

Here is a link to some great photos by Bobby Timonera. He posts here occasionally, so maybe he will comment.

http://www.pbase.com/timonera/tugaya&page=all

migueldiaz · 24th October 2008, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Hi Miguel,
Interesting kris the marine has ...

Hi Bill,

Thanks for those insights on that reported sword duel, among other thoughts you shared to us.

Thanks also for the link on Bobby Timonera's photos. I've heard too about that place (Tugaya) where there's a lot of craftsmen doing the tourist pieces. I should definitely check that out one of these days ... with the objective of stumbling into a real antique piece in one of the shops there.

migueldiaz · 24th October 2008, 01:00 PM

My long-time interest has really been on the history of WW2, and the European theater in particular.

Visiting the West Point Museum (New York) one day [in 2007], I got amazed at the impact the Moros had made on the US military, as evidenced by the artifacts displayed there.

That fanned my interest in Philippine weapons, and the Moro blades in particular. Below are the pics I took at said museum.

On the other pics of the blades of the Assyrian, Persian, etc., I'll just start another thread on that.

24th October 2008, 01:00 PM	#14
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	My long-time interest has really been on the history of WW2, and the European theater in particular. Visiting the West Point Museum (New York) one day [in 2007], I got amazed at the impact the Moros had made on the US military, as evidenced by the artifacts displayed there. That fanned my interest in Philippine weapons, and the Moro blades in particular. Below are the pics I took at said museum. On the other pics of the blades of the Assyrian, Persian, etc., I'll just start another thread on that. Attached Images

21st October 2008, 09:41 PM	#1
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Hi Kai, The stirrup on mine is nonfunctional, it is held in place by the hilt. Miguel's stirrups & mine look like the work of the same craftsman. While some/much of the work in this time period was likely for high end consumers, it's not tourist quality or even meant as a high end souvenir. Look at the dust cover on Moro Swords. I believe it to be from the time period, 1960's & similar craftsmanship. While these swords may not have been intended for battle, I believe they were meant for local use as dress swords or even gift/presentation. For that reason, I would not consider replacing the hilt/dress. Besides, the quality of work is really good. Some tourist pieces have the same look but no where the quality. Sadly the sheath does give it a tourist feel but it also is likely "legit", IMO, as a example of the 1960's. While we likely will never know, it is very plausible this sword/sheath was worn, just like it is. IMO, it makes the whole package ethnographic. The blade in my small sword is not the center piece but it is razor sharp & certainly could be used as a weapon.

22nd October 2008, 04:08 AM	#6
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Yes, it means "Moro Islamic Liberation Front".... Regards

22nd October 2008, 06:36 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD ALSO SUSPECT THE KRIS MAY BE ONE MADE UP OF A MIX OF OLDER AND NEWER PARTS. THE REASONS FOR THIS STATED BY THE OTHER FORUM MEMBERS SOUND VALID TO ME. IT COULD HAVE BEEN REFITTED WITH THE FLASHY GRIP AND SCABBARD LATER AND THE ORIGINAL IVORY POMEL AND BLADE USED. THIS WAS NOT UNCOMMON AS THE OTHER PARTS DO WEAR OUT AND NEED REPLACEING IN NORMAL USE. THESE KRIS WERE OFTEN PASSED DOWN THRU THE FAMILY AND AS WEALTH WAS AQUIRED THEY WERE OFTEN ENHANCED WITH IVORY, GOLD ,ECT. TO SHOW STATUS. THEY WERE NO LONGER USED FOR FIGHTING BUT DID HAVE A PLACE AS A FAMILY HEIRLOOM WORN ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS OR IN CEREMONIES. CONGRADULATIONS ITS A NICE ITEM SINCE THE TERM MORO HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP I WILL ASK A QUESTION I HAVE BEEN NEEDING AN ANSWER TO. I AM WRITING A HISTORICAL FICTION STORY WHICH HAS MORO AS WELL AS DAYAK PEOPLE IN IT. I HAVE BEEN WONDERING IF IT WOULD OFFEND ANY GROUP IF I USE THE WORD MORO TO DESCRIBE MY CHARACTERS PEOPLE? IF IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE THEN I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS OF A TERM TO USE IN ITS PLACE. OR PERHAPS I SHOULD JUST MAKE UP A FICTIOUS NAME? SEEMS A SHAME THOUGH AS THEY ARE THE HERO'S OF THE STORY. THANKS IN ADVANCE.

23rd October 2008, 03:24 PM	#11
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Hi Miguel, Interesting kris the marine has. It looks like it has 2 guards & is a watered blade. No idea about his contest, if it is PR stunt or was a real event. I do know that there is a code in some places in the PI where sword duels or assassinations with a sword have some acceptance where use of a firearm would not be acceptable. Apparently retaliation (code) limited to means of prior incident. Yes there is no doubt that the US military & varies general instructions & eventually the executive order in 1911 of disarmament changed a good generation or two of the Moro traditions. While I doubt swords (manufacture/use) totally disappeared, their revival after WWII was altered. Where a farmer or someone in a remote village would be concerned about a blade for functions of both work & a weapon, a city person would be more concerned about a symbol of present status. I'd consider both ethnographic & each a part of history. While we generally consider "WWII" blades as cerimonial, I'd also guess that a few of them settled disagreements. The commercial aspect has been around since the Spanish but post WWII also saw a explosion in tourist items. Plenty of raw materials (damaged/abandoned equipment) and plenty of customers (service men), who didn't spend enough time, in the PI, to know the genuine items. So there is a blur between ethnographic & tourist. Some is blatant, while some, as can be seen in the present posts, is a personal opinion.

23rd October 2008, 05:16 PM	#12
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Here is a link to some great photos by Bobby Timonera. He posts here occasionally, so maybe he will comment. http://www.pbase.com/timonera/tugaya&page=all