Old knife with military markings -- ideas?

[Ian]

Thanks Tom.

In a previous post about a similar cut point knife, I think you indicated that the cut point was used to indicate a non-military or "non-aggressive" use. Here we seem to have a military knife with this "non-aggressive" feature. That seems odd.

I am also going to suggest that this style is not a traditional Philippine trait in weapons making, but more likely a Spanish influence and thus could be found elsewhere in other regions under Spanish control. To give it a local Filipino name such as a cut point matulis/balasiong does not mean that it would necessarily be unique to the Philippines -- perhaps we just recognize it better there because we have more familiarity with the Filipino weapons than, say, those of Mexico, Cuba, Central or South America. I think that is what Juan Perez was implying in his reply on the other forum.

As a person with a good eye for how edged weapons are made, what do you think of the forging of this blade with a flat back (reverse side) and a curved front (obverse side) ground to the edge. It's not like a Visayan blade at all, which has a typical chisel grind.

Also, the handle is ovoid (egg-shaped) in cross-section, with the "thin" section running along the underside of the handle were there is quite a "ridge" for the fingers to wrap around. This is unlike the usual Flipino hilt configurations that are based on a round cross section, sometimes carved to hexagonal or octagonal shapes but still essentially of cylindrical design.

[tom hyle]

I'll try to address each thing; the quote below is to help me.

Some matulis/balisiong (please do not mistake my lack of knowledge of the names for a lack of familiarity with the swords) are "chisel ground' and I think they're the older ones, but maybe the more Southern ones. The blade style seems to fade into talisbesques and then talibons. This chisel grind though is of the type on old talibons; an overll wedge-section, maybe humped on one side flat on the other (didn't know if you'd get "humpy-flatty" ) and are only chisel sharpened/bevelled at the very edge. Anylyzing the orientation of the edge and the overall wedge shape within the hilt is a real fun and interesting thing to do with old swords; you might be surprised.

The cut point is Spainish/European, and is seen in former Spainish colonies, but on their local forms of blade; cut point machete, etc. The cut point is European, not the matulis, is what I was saying. Now watch me contradict myself, because the matulis, while a basically, especially the c-grind ones, native blade, similar to though straighter than a talibon blade, is in its tang and some might say (though I disagree) its crossguards (note yours lacks this, another missing weapon feature) openly Euro-influenced. The handle seen here seems Euroish, but also resembles Japanese styles; it is however, only seen as such out of PI, AFAIK.

Nothing odd about military work knives......maybe more;; gotta go....

Originally Posted by Ian

Thanks Tom.

In a previous post about a similar cut point knife, I think you indicated that the cut point was used to indicate a non-military or "non-aggressive" use. Here we seem to have a military knife with this "non-aggressive" feature. That seems odd.

I am also going to suggest that this style is not a traditional Philippine trait in weapons making, but more likely a Spanish influence and thus could be found elsewhere in other regions under Spanish control. To give it a local Filipino name such as a cut point matulis/balasiong does not mean that it would necessarily be unique to the Philippines -- perhaps we just recognize it better there because we have more familiarity with the Filipino weapons than, say, those of Mexico, Cuba, Central or South America. I think that is what Juan Perez was implying in his reply on the other forum.

As a person with a good eye for how edged weapons are made, what do you think of the forging of this blade with a flat back (reverse side) and a curved front (obverse side) ground to the edge. It's not like a Visayan blade at all, which has a typical chisel grind.

Also, the handle is ovoid (egg-shaped) in cross-section, with the "thin" section running along the underside of the handle were there is quite a "ridge" for the fingers to wrap around. This is unlike the usual Flipino hilt configurations that are based on a round cross section, sometimes carved to hexagonal or octagonal shapes but still essentially of cylindrical design.

[Ian]

Thanks again Tom.

This is an interesting discussion. I need to press you on some of the statements below, because they imply certain progressions of weapons development that may or may not be true. There is a considerable lack of data about the knives of Luzon prior to the arrival of the Spanish.

I am going to propose that all weapons of the Philippines prior to the arrival of the Spanish were of blind tang construction, similar to styles seen in the southern and central Philippines up to today, and those still surviving in many tribal groups in Luzon particularly in the north.

The full tang constructions were introduced by the Spanish and only adopted to any significant degree in areas of Luzon heavily settled by the Spanish. Along with the full tang construction came several blade styles not commonly found among the natives of Luzon, notably pointy, stabbing knives and swords. These were modified and adapted, along with the introduction of metal guards, within the local context. Strong similarities between certain Luzon knives and knives from Mexico would suggest a common Spanish origin, and there was certainly trade between the various Spanish colonies so that an innovation or style in one colony could find its way to remote Spanish colonies elsewhere.

Given a single dominant force (Spain) plus communication and trade throughout the Empire, I do think we need to be cautious about where we attribute Spanish colonial knives. I am echoing the advice of Juan Perez.

With respect to transitional styles between the full tang, V-ground Tagalog knives and the blind tang, chisel-ground Visayan knives, I have not found an example in the 10+ years that I have been visiting the Philippines. This has been a point of curiousity for me. I have asked many people about such combinations of styles or transitional blades -- nobody I have spoken to has seen them. You mention having seen examples and a place where they are made -- I would really appreciate details and any pictures you may have.

I have not seen a full tang sword or knife with a chisel grind that was of native manufacture and intended for local use. Years ago I had a knife from the 1960s that was a custom "bowie" made in Angeles City for a US serviceman, but that's the extent of my experience.

I don't know what you mean by the blade style seems to fade into talibesques and then talibons. I have always been impressed by the abrupt difference between the knives of Luzon and those of the Visayas. Your statement implies a geographic transition or synthesis in knife styles that I don't think has occurred. Just as the different dialects between Luzon (Tagalog) and the Visayas (Cebuano, Warai, etc.) have been preserved, so too the distinct styles of knives and swords seems to have survived.

I'm also not sure what you mean by the C-grind knives referred to below.

More information would be much appreciated when you have time.

Thanks Tom.

Ian.

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I'll try to address each thing; the quote below is to help me.

Some matulis/balisiong (please do not mistake my lack of knowledge of the names for a lack of familiarity with the swords) are "chisel ground' and I think they're the older ones, but maybe the more Southern ones. The blade style seems to fade into talisbesques and then talibons. This chisel grind though is of the type on old talibons; an overll wedge-section, maybe humped on one side flat on the other (didn't know if you'd get "humpy-flatty" ) and are only chisel sharpened/bevelled at the very edge. Anylyzing the orientation of the edge and the overall wedge shape within the hilt is a real fun and interesting thing to do with old swords; you might be surprised.

The cut point is Spainish/European, and is seen in former Spainish colonies, but on their local forms of blade; cut point machete, etc. The cut point is European, not the matulis, is what I was saying. Now watch me contradict myself, because the matulis, while a basically, especially the c-grind ones, native blade, similar to though straighter than a talibon blade, is in its tang and some might say (though I disagree) its crossguards (note yours lacks this, another missing weapon feature) openly Euro-influenced. The handle seen here seems Euroish, but also resembles Japanese styles; it is however, only seen as such out of PI, AFAIK.

Nothing odd about military work knives......maybe more;; gotta go....

[Rick]

Hi Ian,
This , I believe is a Luzon 'cut point' bolo . It has a through tang and looks similar to your example .
All of these are Span Am Philippine bolos .

[Battara]

Ian I have a similar Tagalog bolo that has the same type of hilt. It even has a sun on the butt, suggesting to me early Katipunan. It is similar to a bolo in Stone's that is attributed to Luzon. I think therefore what you have is a probable Tagalog, definitly Luzon piece.

[tom hyle]

I'm back, and happy to have a go at your questions, Ian.

Thanks for pressing me; sometimes it helps me think; let's see if now is one of those times
I agree that "the progressions of weapons development" I suggest "may or may not be true" they're just feelings based on examples I've seen; no real folklore, even, and I'd really love to know better what's going on geoculturally.

I agree on the thru tangs as European; the tube-handle/socket more likely from mainland SE Asia. But joined to those European thru tang are blades of various degrees, of course, of native influence. The matulis seems particularly native, and I'll tell you why; first, the chisel grind which I see only on ones that seem solidly old; weren't you saying yours is c ground? Or just bringing up the idea? Am I confused? It's less common on them than a wedge shape, but is one thing that may suggest a Visayan relation. Now, the blade is much the same shape overall as an old, "garab" talibon, the kind with a curved cutting blade (the tip of the matulis), anled forward from a triangular shaft/ricassoe (sharpish, very wide, even guard-like, somewhat vestigial, and somewhat transitioned into a smooth s-curve on the matulis, but present), and, sometimes, on old ones, though not all old ones, the same overall wedge-section chisel ground only at the edge/secondary bevel. Look at Rick's recurved pointy one; I think it was the bottom one in the pic (?)

I think the natives had pointy daggers, at least, if not swords, on their own, and contact with the mainland would be as influential as Europe in this regard, no?

The tear-drop shaped shaped guards seen on some of these seem related to minimal Moro guards and lumand integral to the ferule/handle flat quards, and the crossguards I've seen on some of 'em seem as Lumady as they do Europy.


I agree about the pan-imperial trade, and by the way, you should see these two matulis-like Mexican daggers (bowies) I just got, and you know what else reminded me of these daggers, is that picture of the guy with the cape for a shield on the navaja thread; the blade is very like my two little Mexican bolos.

I think you have seen transitional forms, and just haven't recognized them as such; I think indeed, matulis is such a form. There are also Visayan swords with a talibon blade or a very talisbesque blade with the same cutting blade and forward lean, but no ricassoe, often with guards, and occasionally wedge-sectioned. There are smoothly s-curved talibons, but especially talibesques with octagon ferules. There are binagons (or tenegres?) with triangular based forward leaned talibesque blades, many of full regular sword size, and with handguards that may relate in here somewhere......One sees so many different handles on talibons and talibesques, and so many blade varieties; slim tip or wide chisel ground or wedge overall wedge overall flat or overall thicker to the cutting edge (like my Mexican daggers, too!), curved or straight cutting blade, various angles of ricassoe and of tang and edge in relation to hilt; a wild profusion.

Very sorry, but pics are not my best capability at all;I've almost filled a roll & the rest are assigned and my books are minimal, etc.....



[QUOTE=
I have not seen a full tang sword or knife with a chisel grind that was of native manufacture and intended for local use.
I'm also not sure what you mean by the C-grind knives referred to below.


Ian. [/QUOTE]

I don't understand this part of the question, perhaps I've answered it anyway, by rambling? Or maybe you can reword it for me?

[tom hyle]

Know this, too, as a solid archaeological fact: Medieval and post-medieval Europeans often used knives and some daggers that were wedge-sectioned with a scarft-welded, chisel-bevelled edge. I've seen ones in books; dredged out of rivers in England and Russia.

[Rick]

Hi Guys , all three of those bolos came from the same source , a member of the Washington State Volunteers who served exclusively on Luzon . They came with a xerox of his discharge including a list of the battles and skirmishes he had been involved in .
The horsehead hilted one we can wonder about ; the other two have the same through tang construction and ferruling as your piece Ian .

I'd say you can be pretty safe in attributing this bolo to Luzon .

[tom hyle]

Note, too, that guardlessness is common (though not universal) on the pointed ones.