Ritual killing of swords in burials

Paul Macdonald · 20th October 2008, 11:15 AM

A good thread topic!

I believe that the practice of bending or killing a warriors sword for the grave symbolises the death of their own physical form and spirit.

In pre-Christian beliefs, and following into Christianity, the sword is the spirit. Of the realms or Worlds in which we exist and interplay, there are two, the physical and metaphysical, thus providing us with a physical and non-physical spirit.

When ones physical body and spirit died, this was a way to symbolise that to all, that literally, their sword had died.

Pukka Bundook · 21st October 2008, 03:59 PM

Hello Paul,

You mention two "spirits" (physical and non-physical)

I have not heard of a "physical spirit" before.
I always thought that in Old Norse and Anglo-Saxon cultures, wether pre-Christian or Christian, that we were comprised of three elements, body, mind (reasoning) and spirit, and that the spirit lives on, in another world.
...wether this other world is the hall of Valhalla, or Heaven or Hell (seperation) is beyond this subject, but in all cases the spirit is quite clearly defined as living on.

Can you elaborate on where the idea of two spirits comes from?, as I don't seem to see it in old Norse or A-Saxon or Celtic belief, and might be missing something!

Thanks Paul,

Richard.

Bill M · 21st October 2008, 07:26 PM

Richard,

There are several societies where there are two spirits. In the ancient Hawaiian, they believed there was a "low self" spirit that was connected to us on the physical plane and a "high self" spirit that was far above us on a metaphysical plane and could only be reached through the "low self spirit."

Some shamanic-animistic beliefs centered around two spirits also. One spirit (the physical) is your basic persona, the part you might recognize as "you," the composite of your memories and experiences since your birth.

The spirit that recognizes only you, beginning with your birth. This spirit can end at your "death."

The non-physical spirit is more like an "essence." This goes on, perhaps remembering the "physical spirit selves," like chapters in a book. But this "essence" or non-physical spirit endures forever.

Maya Deren in her excellent, fascinating and highly recommended book, "The Divine Horsemen, The Living Gods of Haiti," makes reference to this continuing essence, but makes it more a part of the overall tribal or totemic spirit that she calls a Loa.

http://www.amazon.com/Divine-Horseme.../dp/0914232630

Paul Macdonald · 22nd October 2008, 01:55 AM

These are very interesting references Bill, thanks.

Ones that I was previously unaware of, but tie in perfectly with previous experience.

My reasoning for the physical spirit is based on the natural law of proportionate physical/metaphysical symmetry - As Above, so Below.

Given that there is a physical body and mind, a physical spirit would naturally complement our trio of elements that comprise our working whole. Likewise there can co-exist within our system a metaphysical mind, body and spirit.

Thus, when the physical body and mind dies, we might also want our physical spirit to pass on with us instead of hanging around here for longer than necessary. One way to symbolise that was to break or cast away what was the ultimate symbol of our personal spirit on Earth (the sword).

The physical spirit takes on the very form of our own physical bodies and are often recognised as ghosts.

Interestingly enough, I found myself posting on another blades forum tonight about ghosts

Sleep tight!

Pukka Bundook · 23rd October 2008, 02:10 PM

Hi Bill and Paul.

Thank you for the replies.
The information you supplied is very interesting.
From what I gather though, these two-spirit beliefs are from a different part of the world, and I have not run accross any such beliefs in European history.
(but might be wrong!)

As Jim's original post was about Celtic and later European sword "killings",
It is only European beliefs we need address here as pertinent to the subject.

To me, it is apparent through grave goods, that the deceased in pre-Christian times, were generally expected to make the trip to the "other world" and outfitted for the journey with food and drink to "keep him going" along the way, and quite often weapons to safeguard him as well.

Even now, in what is nominally a Christian age, we still have vestages of these same beliefs, and often bury loved ones with some token of our affection and respect.
It is with such beliefs in mind, that we should probably delve into the reasons for sword "killings" in Europe.......as taking on a world-view of ancient beliefs may muddy the issue even further.
What do you think?

With best wishes,

Richard.

20th October 2008, 11:15 AM	#1
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	A good thread topic! I believe that the practice of bending or killing a warriors sword for the grave symbolises the death of their own physical form and spirit. In pre-Christian beliefs, and following into Christianity, the sword is the spirit. Of the realms or Worlds in which we exist and interplay, there are two, the physical and metaphysical, thus providing us with a physical and non-physical spirit. When ones physical body and spirit died, this was a way to symbolise that to all, that literally, their sword had died.

21st October 2008, 03:59 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hello Paul, You mention two "spirits" (physical and non-physical) I have not heard of a "physical spirit" before. I always thought that in Old Norse and Anglo-Saxon cultures, wether pre-Christian or Christian, that we were comprised of three elements, body, mind (reasoning) and spirit, and that the spirit lives on, in another world. ...wether this other world is the hall of Valhalla, or Heaven or Hell (seperation) is beyond this subject, but in all cases the spirit is quite clearly defined as living on. Can you elaborate on where the idea of two spirits comes from?, as I don't seem to see it in old Norse or A-Saxon or Celtic belief, and might be missing something! Thanks Paul, Richard.

21st October 2008, 07:26 PM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Richard, There are several societies where there are two spirits. In the ancient Hawaiian, they believed there was a "low self" spirit that was connected to us on the physical plane and a "high self" spirit that was far above us on a metaphysical plane and could only be reached through the "low self spirit." Some shamanic-animistic beliefs centered around two spirits also. One spirit (the physical) is your basic persona, the part you might recognize as "you," the composite of your memories and experiences since your birth. The spirit that recognizes only you, beginning with your birth. This spirit can end at your "death." The non-physical spirit is more like an "essence." This goes on, perhaps remembering the "physical spirit selves," like chapters in a book. But this "essence" or non-physical spirit endures forever. Maya Deren in her excellent, fascinating and highly recommended book, "The Divine Horsemen, The Living Gods of Haiti," makes reference to this continuing essence, but makes it more a part of the overall tribal or totemic spirit that she calls a Loa. http://www.amazon.com/Divine-Horseme.../dp/0914232630

22nd October 2008, 01:55 AM	#4
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	These are very interesting references Bill, thanks. Ones that I was previously unaware of, but tie in perfectly with previous experience. My reasoning for the physical spirit is based on the natural law of proportionate physical/metaphysical symmetry - As Above, so Below. Given that there is a physical body and mind, a physical spirit would naturally complement our trio of elements that comprise our working whole. Likewise there can co-exist within our system a metaphysical mind, body and spirit. Thus, when the physical body and mind dies, we might also want our physical spirit to pass on with us instead of hanging around here for longer than necessary. One way to symbolise that was to break or cast away what was the ultimate symbol of our personal spirit on Earth (the sword). The physical spirit takes on the very form of our own physical bodies and are often recognised as ghosts. Interestingly enough, I found myself posting on another blades forum tonight about ghosts Sleep tight!

23rd October 2008, 02:10 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hi Bill and Paul. Thank you for the replies. The information you supplied is very interesting. From what I gather though, these two-spirit beliefs are from a different part of the world, and I have not run accross any such beliefs in European history. (but might be wrong!) As Jim's original post was about Celtic and later European sword "killings", It is only European beliefs we need address here as pertinent to the subject. To me, it is apparent through grave goods, that the deceased in pre-Christian times, were generally expected to make the trip to the "other world" and outfitted for the journey with food and drink to "keep him going" along the way, and quite often weapons to safeguard him as well. Even now, in what is nominally a Christian age, we still have vestages of these same beliefs, and often bury loved ones with some token of our affection and respect. It is with such beliefs in mind, that we should probably delve into the reasons for sword "killings" in Europe.......as taking on a world-view of ancient beliefs may muddy the issue even further. What do you think? With best wishes, Richard.