left hand sword

fearn · 17th October 2008, 05:00 AM

Hi Fernando,

Kind of like a wakizashi, although I'd call it an "o tanto," in the sense that (as I understand it), a coustille is an outsized dagger, rather than a swordlet. Perhaps this is a questionable distinction?

Digging around a little more, I suspect that coustille is a name that Oakeshott came up with, so I don't know if it's the proper name for this weapon. Coustille does serve as a categorical name.

F

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2008, 04:54 PM

I have been trying to learn more on this interesting piece since its posting, and really appreciate the extra work on the photos!!! This piece is quite puzzling as it is described as a 'left hand sword', and I am presuming that what is meant, as questioned by Bill, that it was intended as a parrying weapon with the primary sword.
Its smaller size than a regular sword is indeed unusual, as this does look very much like German hand and a half swords which have about 28 inch or longer blades. I am presuming the blade length is 20" on Clockworks example.

This sword's hilt and overall appearance, especially downward crabs claw type quillons is strikingly similar to 'quillon daggers' of the 16th to 17th centuries of Italy c.1600 ("Wallace Collection Catalogs" , Sir James Mann, 1962, examples A795, A796 and A793). In the text describing these they are termed 'left hand daggers', and I mention them because of the similar hilts and use of the left hand term.

I have honestly not heard of a 'left hand sword' though left hand daggers which were typically made en suite with rapiers, and it seems that their purpose was for close in combat more than parrying. This would seem to eliminate the potential for a secondary or 'left hand' sword of this size for either purpose.

I agree with Fearn in his suggestion that this is probably a coustille, and thank him for bringing that in. In checking "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Egerton Castle, 1885, p.229) it is noted that one of the two kinds of single hand short swords, one is the 'coustils a croc', with "...straight double edged blades, and diminutives of swords or augmentatives of daggers".
Perhaps this might be one of the smaller versions of the hand and a half sword, or larger of the 'left hand daggers', hence the term describing it.

The well marked blade is a bit of an anomaly, which would by definition answer to a 'talismanic blade' because of the astrologic or 'magic' symbols on it. These symbols were applied to sword blades in the 17th century, and through the 18th because,as described by Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971, p.41), "...in fighting and hunting the swordsman often needed more than confidence in the blade. It had to possess some mystical quality to spur him on to greater deeds or to bring him luck".
Peter Munsten of Solingen, as well as several others, used the half moon marking (Mann, op.cit. p.316) and the solar face as well as usually a star were often included in the groupings with ‘magical’ qualities . The ‘bishop with mitre’ image is believed to have been used by Peter Munich of Solingen c.1595-1660 (“Cut and Thrust Weapons” E.Wagner, 1967, p. 106) though those depicted in this reference are noticeably different.

Also, the script writing which reads ‘IN SOLIN GEN’ are split into two lines completely incongruently, which seems a bit suspect. While the half moon and solar face seem in line with markings described, the ‘star’ is of different style and placed away from the magical signs, with the ‘bishop’ between, as well as the incongruous script.

These ‘talismanic’ blades in my opinion evolved from the so called ‘calendar swords’ introduced in the early 16th century, on the blades of which were engraved a calendar of saints days often accompanied by zodiac symbols. These were originally placed on hunting swords, and according to Blackmore (op.cit. p.18) “…there was always a half mystical, half religious element in the art of hunting and results were considered likely to be better if the planets were in the right conjunction or if the sympathies of an appropriate saint properly solicited”.
By the middle of the 16th century, artists like Ambrosius Gemlich of Munich were specialists on these ‘calendar’ swords for hunting. This custom endured into the 17th century, and I believe the use of magical symbols on blades evolved into markings to accompany markings of the makers proclaiming blade quality. I believe the most prevalent use of these magical symbols was in Europe, primarily Germany, in the 18th century.

clockwork · 17th October 2008, 06:23 PM

WOW Jim that was a great read. I am still curious about the one marking at the base of the blade. Do you recognize it? I am trying to find references on these markings but having a hard time finding them on the net. Also would you agree that this is a late 15th or early 16th century blade from your research or do you think it is younger?

Thanks for all the imput from everyone.

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2008, 06:51 PM

Thank you Clockwork!!! I worked on finding the info for most of the day yesterday, and had great fun doing it! Its great when researching an item with such great potential, and intriguing elements. To me this is what antique weapons are all about....and they do indeed have stories to tell.

In writing all of the other material, I forgot to address that makers cartouche. In going through the resources I have, the closest I could find
was a similar marking, loosely resembling a cursive letter 'f', which was on a rapier of N.Italy c.1590 ("Wallace Collection Catalogs", op.cit. item A555). It is noted that the mark resembled the crozier head arms of the city of Basel. (crozier= the processional staff in Catholic regalia which represents the shepherds crook).

I think this suggests early 17th century period is quite possible for this piece, as that cartouche seem quite authentic to me in its placement. I have not yet checked the A.V.B.Norman reference for the prismatic pommel form. At this point it seems this piece may be early, most probably reworked and with more contemporary decorative (and talismanic) motif applied to the blade.
As noted the script appears quite incongruent with the word Solingen split on two lines, and as far as I know most authentic Solingen inscriptions use the Latin Me Fecit Solingen, or in some cases 'en' Solingen, not 'in' Solingen.

Possibly an earlier piece later 'embellished' ?

All best regards,
Jim

clockwork · 17th October 2008, 07:11 PM

Thanks for all the great work Jim I plan on heading back to Budapest in a month back to the dealer that I purchased it from and will see if I can pump him for any more information on the blade. I was wondering if you have any idea what this marking means?

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2008, 08:14 PM

I cant really make that out , its a bit dark, and partially obscured by several pitted spots. My guess would be it seems like a flourish of some kind rather than a distinct symbolic image, but that only adds to the anomaly of the somewhat eclectic markings overall.
I look forward to hearing more on what the dealer has to say. In reviewing the makers cartouche I think that while the example I noted has similarity, it is not the same, so best to consider for period reference.

Please keep us posted OK?

All the best,
Jim

clockwork · 17th October 2008, 08:20 PM

Sure thing. I might post a few other pieces I have in the future also, but they are not as nice as this one.

17th October 2008, 06:51 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you Clockwork!!! I worked on finding the info for most of the day yesterday, and had great fun doing it! Its great when researching an item with such great potential, and intriguing elements. To me this is what antique weapons are all about....and they do indeed have stories to tell. In writing all of the other material, I forgot to address that makers cartouche. In going through the resources I have, the closest I could find was a similar marking, loosely resembling a cursive letter 'f', which was on a rapier of N.Italy c.1590 ("Wallace Collection Catalogs", op.cit. item A555). It is noted that the mark resembled the crozier head arms of the city of Basel. (crozier= the processional staff in Catholic regalia which represents the shepherds crook). I think this suggests early 17th century period is quite possible for this piece, as that cartouche seem quite authentic to me in its placement. I have not yet checked the A.V.B.Norman reference for the prismatic pommel form. At this point it seems this piece may be early, most probably reworked and with more contemporary decorative (and talismanic) motif applied to the blade. As noted the script appears quite incongruent with the word Solingen split on two lines, and as far as I know most authentic Solingen inscriptions use the Latin Me Fecit Solingen, or in some cases 'en' Solingen, not 'in' Solingen. Possibly an earlier piece later 'embellished' ? All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 17th October 2008 at 08:15 PM.

17th October 2008, 07:11 PM	#5
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 96	Thanks for all the great work Jim I plan on heading back to Budapest in a month back to the dealer that I purchased it from and will see if I can pump him for any more information on the blade. I was wondering if you have any idea what this marking means? Attached Images

17th October 2008, 05:00 AM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Fernando, Kind of like a wakizashi, although I'd call it an "o tanto," in the sense that (as I understand it), a coustille is an outsized dagger, rather than a swordlet. Perhaps this is a questionable distinction? Digging around a little more, I suspect that coustille is a name that Oakeshott came up with, so I don't know if it's the proper name for this weapon. Coustille does serve as a categorical name. F

17th October 2008, 04:54 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I have been trying to learn more on this interesting piece since its posting, and really appreciate the extra work on the photos!!! This piece is quite puzzling as it is described as a 'left hand sword', and I am presuming that what is meant, as questioned by Bill, that it was intended as a parrying weapon with the primary sword. Its smaller size than a regular sword is indeed unusual, as this does look very much like German hand and a half swords which have about 28 inch or longer blades. I am presuming the blade length is 20" on Clockworks example. This sword's hilt and overall appearance, especially downward crabs claw type quillons is strikingly similar to 'quillon daggers' of the 16th to 17th centuries of Italy c.1600 ("Wallace Collection Catalogs" , Sir James Mann, 1962, examples A795, A796 and A793). In the text describing these they are termed 'left hand daggers', and I mention them because of the similar hilts and use of the left hand term. I have honestly not heard of a 'left hand sword' though left hand daggers which were typically made en suite with rapiers, and it seems that their purpose was for close in combat more than parrying. This would seem to eliminate the potential for a secondary or 'left hand' sword of this size for either purpose. I agree with Fearn in his suggestion that this is probably a coustille, and thank him for bringing that in. In checking "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Egerton Castle, 1885, p.229) it is noted that one of the two kinds of single hand short swords, one is the 'coustils a croc', with "...straight double edged blades, and diminutives of swords or augmentatives of daggers". Perhaps this might be one of the smaller versions of the hand and a half sword, or larger of the 'left hand daggers', hence the term describing it. The well marked blade is a bit of an anomaly, which would by definition answer to a 'talismanic blade' because of the astrologic or 'magic' symbols on it. These symbols were applied to sword blades in the 17th century, and through the 18th because,as described by Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971, p.41), "...in fighting and hunting the swordsman often needed more than confidence in the blade. It had to possess some mystical quality to spur him on to greater deeds or to bring him luck". Peter Munsten of Solingen, as well as several others, used the half moon marking (Mann, op.cit. p.316) and the solar face as well as usually a star were often included in the groupings with ‘magical’ qualities . The ‘bishop with mitre’ image is believed to have been used by Peter Munich of Solingen c.1595-1660 (“Cut and Thrust Weapons” E.Wagner, 1967, p. 106) though those depicted in this reference are noticeably different. Also, the script writing which reads ‘IN SOLIN GEN’ are split into two lines completely incongruently, which seems a bit suspect. While the half moon and solar face seem in line with markings described, the ‘star’ is of different style and placed away from the magical signs, with the ‘bishop’ between, as well as the incongruous script. These ‘talismanic’ blades in my opinion evolved from the so called ‘calendar swords’ introduced in the early 16th century, on the blades of which were engraved a calendar of saints days often accompanied by zodiac symbols. These were originally placed on hunting swords, and according to Blackmore (op.cit. p.18) “…there was always a half mystical, half religious element in the art of hunting and results were considered likely to be better if the planets were in the right conjunction or if the sympathies of an appropriate saint properly solicited”. By the middle of the 16th century, artists like Ambrosius Gemlich of Munich were specialists on these ‘calendar’ swords for hunting. This custom endured into the 17th century, and I believe the use of magical symbols on blades evolved into markings to accompany markings of the makers proclaiming blade quality. I believe the most prevalent use of these magical symbols was in Europe, primarily Germany, in the 18th century.

17th October 2008, 06:23 PM	#3
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 96	WOW Jim that was a great read. I am still curious about the one marking at the base of the blade. Do you recognize it? I am trying to find references on these markings but having a hard time finding them on the net. Also would you agree that this is a late 15th or early 16th century blade from your research or do you think it is younger? Thanks for all the imput from everyone.

17th October 2008, 08:14 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I cant really make that out , its a bit dark, and partially obscured by several pitted spots. My guess would be it seems like a flourish of some kind rather than a distinct symbolic image, but that only adds to the anomaly of the somewhat eclectic markings overall. I look forward to hearing more on what the dealer has to say. In reviewing the makers cartouche I think that while the example I noted has similarity, it is not the same, so best to consider for period reference. Please keep us posted OK? All the best, Jim

17th October 2008, 08:20 PM	#7
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 96	Sure thing. I might post a few other pieces I have in the future also, but they are not as nice as this one.