Preservation of Craftsmanship at National Level

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 06:52 AM

Maybe they've already "been there, done that" and that's what's up with the somewhat mysterious "temple swords", too; it might be an existent revivifiable thing.....

Ann Feuerbach · 10th April 2005, 06:59 PM

FYI, I heard that the US government now has a very new grant program to give money to places to help support tradtional craft production. I plan to find out more about it. I think they have supported work in China, so craft knowledge is not lost.

ariel · 10th April 2005, 07:28 PM

I guess it's in a large measure a "supply and demand" issue. Silver bowls, carved wood, carpets etc. enjoy wide demand because of their universal decorative potential and wide appeal to a large clientele. Swords, on the other hand, have very narrow client base and, most importantly, have major emphasis on the blade. Art lovers would be happy to purchase intricately-designed scabbards and handles without blades in them. Thus, the decorative component is preserved, but there is no place for the swordsmith in this food chain.
Let's admit it: the utilitarian purpose of the sword is lost forever and the tradition of real swordmaking vanishes as we speak. Governtmental and NG organisations can pour (or trickle) money into this industry until they are blue in the face, but if nobody buys the stuff even the trickle will dry up.
By the same token, the art of making horse whips, washing boards and chastity belts is also unlikely to flourish.
As Bill Clinton used to say, "It's the economy, stupid!"

tom hyle · 10th April 2005, 10:40 PM

Oh, Ariel, I must so disagree. The sword lives; it can never be obsolete as an interpersonal weapon, or even as a tool for the wild human (who may one day be abolished, but isn't yet). It is an effective weapon. A gun, for instance, is mainly superior in range, and littel moreso than a bow, in practical terms of most fighting. Did the bow obsolete the sword? I've no doubt someone thought it did, and in battle field terms the sword is rarely a main military weapon, but for self/home defence, etc. it can never be obsolete if humans have hands to hold it.
Also, some of the finest swords and blades ever made are being made right now in N America, and over the last 1/2 century it has grown tremendously, along with sword fighting martial arts training.
Also, whips and chastity belts going out of style? What internet did you get here over?

Please don't mistake my disagreement and even that bit of playfulness for disrespect.

fearn · 11th April 2005, 04:28 AM

Hi Ariel,

Since I fairly regularly browse Museum Replicas, I also have to disagree.

Now, you're fully right that swords have no place on the modern battlefield. On the other hand, martial arts and reenacting are large and growing hobbies, and someone has to feed their insatiable demand for weapons, arms, armour, and accoutrements.

A bigger problem is keeping those (insert two lines of censored language) Chinese factories from flooding any market that opens up. You know the ones I mean, those who flood eBay with cheap swords with $80 shipping fees....

After all, were I buying a dha or a ilwoon, I'd like to know that my money helped some smith keep up the tradition, rather than financing some Shanghai factory owners' fourth Hummer.

Fearn

Rivkin · 11th April 2005, 06:04 AM

I used to be very interested in building ship models. While these guys are enormously beautiful, and have a wide appeal, nevertheless - ship modeling died on my own eyes.

First of all it was replaced by mostly machine made models, that looked 50% worse, but costed just 5% or the real thing. Than the whole industry went to China, with an exception of a few guys who make 10,000$+ models for museums and a few very rich buyers.

Why Stradevarius is still the best out there ? Same story - semi-mass production, multiplayed by the high costs of manual labor, multiplayed by non-growing demand.

We must remember that in the past centuries a lot of artisans had a choise in between of being a starving peasant, spending all his life in the field, or to be a less starving (but still very poor) artisan. And many were ready to sacrifice many years of apprenticeship in order to get there.

This epoch is gone. Manual labor will never get to its past heights - third world's labor force is mostly unskilled and the first world's labor force is too expensive.

ariel · 11th April 2005, 04:08 PM

Exactly right! The market favors cheap stuff.
I would guess that 99% of amateur martial artists buy cheap but functional replicas made in Taiwan, China etc and do not care about any preservation issues.
A tiny fraction of high-class martial arts afficionados buy custom made blades and even smaller fraction collects the real stuff.
All of them train with wooden/bamboo/plastic sticks being concerned about the safety of both the weapon and the opponent.
Thus, the entire demand for martial arts swords of whatever kind can be satisfied with a single mass-production outfit. Indians can do it now but the Chinese will take over in no time. And that is the end of the tradition, whether we like it or not.
Such an outcome does not make me unhappy since I collect only real stuff. I know that many people will be very sad and I sympathize with them. No offence meant but to each his own.

Rick · 12th April 2005, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I used to be very interested in building ship models. While these guys are enormously beautiful, and have a wide appeal, nevertheless - ship modeling died on my own eyes.

First of all it was replaced by mostly machine made models, that looked 50% worse, but costed just 5% or the real thing. Than the whole industry went to China, with an exception of a few guys who make 10,000$+ models for museums and a few very rich buyers.

Why Stradevarius is still the best out there ? Same story - semi-mass production, multiplayed by the high costs of manual labor, multiplayed by non-growing demand.

We must remember that in the past centuries a lot of artisans had a choise in between of being a starving peasant, spending all his life in the field, or to be a less starving (but still very poor) artisan. And many were ready to sacrifice many years of apprenticeship in order to get there.

This epoch is gone. Manual labor will never get to its past heights - third world's labor force is mostly unskilled and the first world's labor force is too expensive.

Hello Rivkin ,
Authentic plank on frame ship modeling is very much alive and well in the U.S.
A friend of mine supports his family quite well by building custom models . Some are in museums , some in corporate hq.'s and in the hands of very wealthy individuals .
Not a dying art here .

10th April 2005, 06:52 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Maybe they've already "been there, done that" and that's what's up with the somewhat mysterious "temple swords", too; it might be an existent revivifiable thing..... Last edited by tom hyle; 10th April 2005 at 10:55 AM. Reason: revivifiable ain't easy to spell right the first time neither

10th April 2005, 06:59 PM	#2
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	FYI, I heard that the US government now has a very new grant program to give money to places to help support tradtional craft production. I plan to find out more about it. I think they have supported work in China, so craft knowledge is not lost.

10th April 2005, 07:28 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I guess it's in a large measure a "supply and demand" issue. Silver bowls, carved wood, carpets etc. enjoy wide demand because of their universal decorative potential and wide appeal to a large clientele. Swords, on the other hand, have very narrow client base and, most importantly, have major emphasis on the blade. Art lovers would be happy to purchase intricately-designed scabbards and handles without blades in them. Thus, the decorative component is preserved, but there is no place for the swordsmith in this food chain. Let's admit it: the utilitarian purpose of the sword is lost forever and the tradition of real swordmaking vanishes as we speak. Governtmental and NG organisations can pour (or trickle) money into this industry until they are blue in the face, but if nobody buys the stuff even the trickle will dry up. By the same token, the art of making horse whips, washing boards and chastity belts is also unlikely to flourish. As Bill Clinton used to say, "It's the economy, stupid!"

10th April 2005, 10:40 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Oh, Ariel, I must so disagree. The sword lives; it can never be obsolete as an interpersonal weapon, or even as a tool for the wild human (who may one day be abolished, but isn't yet). It is an effective weapon. A gun, for instance, is mainly superior in range, and littel moreso than a bow, in practical terms of most fighting. Did the bow obsolete the sword? I've no doubt someone thought it did, and in battle field terms the sword is rarely a main military weapon, but for self/home defence, etc. it can never be obsolete if humans have hands to hold it. Also, some of the finest swords and blades ever made are being made right now in N America, and over the last 1/2 century it has grown tremendously, along with sword fighting martial arts training. Also, whips and chastity belts going out of style? What internet did you get here over? Please don't mistake my disagreement and even that bit of playfulness for disrespect.

11th April 2005, 04:28 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Ariel, Since I fairly regularly browse Museum Replicas, I also have to disagree. Now, you're fully right that swords have no place on the modern battlefield. On the other hand, martial arts and reenacting are large and growing hobbies, and someone has to feed their insatiable demand for weapons, arms, armour, and accoutrements. A bigger problem is keeping those (insert two lines of censored language) Chinese factories from flooding any market that opens up. You know the ones I mean, those who flood eBay with cheap swords with $80 shipping fees.... After all, were I buying a dha or a ilwoon, I'd like to know that my money helped some smith keep up the tradition, rather than financing some Shanghai factory owners' fourth Hummer. Fearn

11th April 2005, 06:04 AM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I used to be very interested in building ship models. While these guys are enormously beautiful, and have a wide appeal, nevertheless - ship modeling died on my own eyes. First of all it was replaced by mostly machine made models, that looked 50% worse, but costed just 5% or the real thing. Than the whole industry went to China, with an exception of a few guys who make 10,000$+ models for museums and a few very rich buyers. Why Stradevarius is still the best out there ? Same story - semi-mass production, multiplayed by the high costs of manual labor, multiplayed by non-growing demand. We must remember that in the past centuries a lot of artisans had a choise in between of being a starving peasant, spending all his life in the field, or to be a less starving (but still very poor) artisan. And many were ready to sacrifice many years of apprenticeship in order to get there. This epoch is gone. Manual labor will never get to its past heights - third world's labor force is mostly unskilled and the first world's labor force is too expensive.

11th April 2005, 04:08 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Exactly right! The market favors cheap stuff. I would guess that 99% of amateur martial artists buy cheap but functional replicas made in Taiwan, China etc and do not care about any preservation issues. A tiny fraction of high-class martial arts afficionados buy custom made blades and even smaller fraction collects the real stuff. All of them train with wooden/bamboo/plastic sticks being concerned about the safety of both the weapon and the opponent. Thus, the entire demand for martial arts swords of whatever kind can be satisfied with a single mass-production outfit. Indians can do it now but the Chinese will take over in no time. And that is the end of the tradition, whether we like it or not. Such an outcome does not make me unhappy since I collect only real stuff. I know that many people will be very sad and I sympathize with them. No offence meant but to each his own.