spanish colonial lances

Gonzalo G · 12th October 2008, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pallas

i think the kiowas did raid deep into mexico, from the book "lone star: a history of texas and the texans" it reads:

"kiowas pushed war parties many hundreds of miles into hostile territory, harrying both indian and european. one war band raided so far south they brought back descriptions of monkeys and parrots. they had reached either guatemala or the yucatan."

A books says so, but on which grounds? Many false things have been said on books, and many with some interest. There are not records of such raids on the primary sources. When did the kiowas did so? Where the historian get this information? Does he has a valid source?

This not the place to dicuss such sujects, but I find this texan wiritter biased by personal interpretations of the available information, in my opinion. Without proof better than his word, or than his personal interpretation of another´s statements, it can´t be accepted. You should consider that Guatemala is THOUSDANS of miles far from Texas, and that it could not have some sense to make a raid so far, apart from many other material considerations related with their trip and survival. It couldn´t be ECONOMIC, and economy traces limits to human behaviour, as it is the root of survival.

It must be stated that San Luis Potosí, the limit of the indian raids, has indeed a big region with monkeys and parrots (there are parrots even in Coahuila, on the border with Texas). This region is named "La Huasteca". It is, also, hundreds of miles from North Texas. But it is VERY far from Guatemala and still far from Central México. I think there is a confussion, and the author jumped into conclussions. Anyway, he did also make a great job in stuying indian nomadic cultures.
Regards

Gonzalo G

Jim McDougall · 13th October 2008, 10:30 PM

I think Gonzalo makes excellent points. One must consider the literature in which these rather improbable events are presented, and whether or not the author is citing them as fact, or colorful romaticized tales. If the book noted is a history discussing these tribes, then the description of the events should have the source of the data cited. If it is an adventure narrative or travel item then of course, this should be qualified in the wording.

Gonzalo has presented some interesting facts that do offer possibility for the unusual accounts suggesting raids of such long distance, and that the presence of this wildlife need not be from as far as Mesoamerica. I recall reading some very exciting books in researching the famed American 'Bowie Knife', including one titled "The Iron Mistress". This colorful story presents a mixture of fact and a good measure of folklore, and in this type of narrative it becomes difficult to tell where one ends and the other begins. It was however, great material for a movie!
This very phenomenon..folklore...has led to countless misperceptions in the study of not only weapons, but clearly history itself.

Indian folklore is inclusive in their wonderful history, which is considered oral tradition, and in many ways of course includes not only historical and legendary events, but many of profound religious belief. The drawback feom a historical point of view with oral tradition, is that stories tend to gain varying degree of embellishment through time, and deep respect and admiration of forebearers often inadvertantly adds considerable dimension referring to them.
This does not mean that oral tradition in Native American history is untrue or questionable, but recognizes that metaphoric context can often present unique challenges in scholarly perspective. My deep fascination in American Indian history in only exceeded by my profound respect for thier culture.

I think that the Comanches and thier nominal allies, the Kiowa, probably did raid into Mexico to the degree described by Gonzalo, but if any raid by them did reach that much further into Mexico or Mesoamerica, it would most likely have been a singular event. Thier primary purpose in raiding was to obtain horses, and these were readily available wherever the Spanish were, in Texas, New Mexico, and northern Mexico. I cannot imagine why they would travel this great distance to obtain what was available much closer.

Travelling great distances however, was not an all unusual in historical times, as I am discovering more and more, and these tribes did travel more often toward Canada. The evidence of trade items with southwestern tribes from faraway places, including Mesoamerica, were most likely obtained through intertribal contact and networking, rather than singular forays of the entire distance. This is much the same in the history of trade worldwide.

All best regards,
Jim

aiontay · 20th November 2008, 09:16 PM

I know this doesn't deal directly with Spanish colonial lances, but as for how far south Kiowa raids went, they definitely went south of San Luis Potosi, although they ususally were to areas farther north. My great, great, great grandfather was captured around San Luis Potosi according to my family's oral traditions. He was the father of the original Aiontay, whose name I carry.

As for the monkeys, the story was written down by Scott Mommaday in his book "Way to Rainy Mountain", but it is also pretty well known among the Kiowas. Basically, a war party decided to go as far south as they could go, and only turned back when they got to an area where they saw little furry men with tails in the trees above them. This was just too strange for them, and they headed back up north.

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2008, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

I know this doesn't deal directly with Spanish colonial lances, but as for how far south Kiowa raids went, they definitely went south of San Luis Potosi, although they ususally were to areas farther north. My great, great, great grandfather was captured around San Luis Potosi according to my family's oral traditions. He was the father of the original Aiontay, whose name I carry.

As for the monkeys, the story was written down by Scott Mommaday in his book "Way to Rainy Mountain", but it is also pretty well known among the Kiowas. Basically, a war party decided to go as far south as they could go, and only turned back when they got to an area where they saw little furry men with tails in the trees above them. This was just too strange for them, and they headed back up north.

Hello Aiontay, and welcome!!! It is great to see this thread brought up again and especially to see your entry concerning the Kiowa raiding partys into Mexico. I would very much like to hear more, as I am under the impression that you are of Kiowa ancestry, and I find that most fascinating. I have always deeply admired the Native American history, traditions and heritage, and in travelling cross country have been fortunate to visit many important locations. It is most heartening to see the traditions and heritage of these many nations being preserved and with well earned pride.

Thank you for confirming the distances of these raids with such well qualified information....I really love the story of 'furry little men with tails'!!

that truly must have been enough to say..I think we may have gone too far!!

All the very best,
Jim

Gonzalo G · 21st November 2008, 01:46 AM

It makes sense, Aiontay. Welcome to the forum. I hope you can enrich this multicultural cauldron.

Regards

Gonzalo

aiontay · 21st November 2008, 02:24 AM

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, Jim, I'm Kiowa and Chickasaw. The Kiowas certainly covered some distances back in the old days; Zone-tay, the original Aiontay's wife who we descend from, was born on the headwaters of the Arkansas on a return trip from visiting the Crows. Of course, the Spanish also did a bit of travelling themselves.

I should also point out that the Indians, or at least the Kiowas, didn't throw their lances. Also, while tomahawks were popular, they were more prestige items rather than actual weapons. My grandmother talked about the Kiowas using war clubs, but not tomahawks. The Kiowa ledger art I've seen shows spears and sabers used in combat, but no tomahawks.

As for strange creatures, Mooney's collection of Kiowa shield designs shows one shield depicting an elephant! I can't read the written description since the scanned image doesn't show the writing very well, but it is clearly an elephant.

I need to go back and comment on some of the threads regarding Kachin swords (nhtu) as well since I've spent time among the Kachins and actually have one that was given to me by a Kachin friend.

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2008, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, Jim, I'm Kiowa and Chickasaw. The Kiowas certainly covered some distances back in the old days; Zone-tay, the original Aiontay's wife who we descend from, was born on the headwaters of the Arkansas on a return trip from visiting the Crows. Of course, the Spanish also did a bit of travelling themselves.

I should also point out that the Indians, or at least the Kiowas, didn't throw their lances. Also, while tomahawks were popular, they were more prestige items rather than actual weapons. My grandmother talked about the Kiowas using war clubs, but not tomahawks. The Kiowa ledger art I've seen shows spears and sabers used in combat, but no tomahawks.

As for strange creatures, Mooney's collection of Kiowa shield designs shows one shield depicting an elephant! I can't read the written description since the scanned image doesn't show the writing very well, but it is clearly an elephant.

I need to go back and comment on some of the threads regarding Kachin swords (nhtu) as well since I've spent time among the Kachins and actually have one that was given to me by a Kachin friend.

Absolutely fantastic input Aiontay! Thank you for the notes on the lances and tomahawks, and other comments which are excellent in helping us learn more on the American Indian weapons. The note on the shield with the elephant is pretty stunning ! I think it would really be interesting to review some of these surprisingly incongruent elements found on weaponry such as this, and to discuss how these might have arrived in completely unexpected cultures.
Personally I believe that the complexity of trade networking far exceeded commonly held modern comprehension and it seems research and archaeological discoveries continue to reveal evidence suggesting these astounding connections.
In many cases, material culture that may have changed hands at any number of points from its origin to its final location, would be not unsurprisingly nor unexpectedly strange to be found there.

I think Gonzalos earlier note on the presence of monkeys and parrots being found farther north in Mexico is well placed also, as geographic boundaries have little to do with nature, but it is entirely fascinating that the various raiding parties moved so deeply south regardless of what exact region they reached.

I really look forward to your posting on the items on earlier threads, and I'd like very much to hear more on Native American weapons, which is a topic we need to have more coverage on.

Thanks again, and its good to have you posting with us!

All the best,
Jim

13th October 2008, 10:30 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	I think Gonzalo makes excellent points. One must consider the literature in which these rather improbable events are presented, and whether or not the author is citing them as fact, or colorful romaticized tales. If the book noted is a history discussing these tribes, then the description of the events should have the source of the data cited. If it is an adventure narrative or travel item then of course, this should be qualified in the wording. Gonzalo has presented some interesting facts that do offer possibility for the unusual accounts suggesting raids of such long distance, and that the presence of this wildlife need not be from as far as Mesoamerica. I recall reading some very exciting books in researching the famed American 'Bowie Knife', including one titled "The Iron Mistress". This colorful story presents a mixture of fact and a good measure of folklore, and in this type of narrative it becomes difficult to tell where one ends and the other begins. It was however, great material for a movie! This very phenomenon..folklore...has led to countless misperceptions in the study of not only weapons, but clearly history itself. Indian folklore is inclusive in their wonderful history, which is considered oral tradition, and in many ways of course includes not only historical and legendary events, but many of profound religious belief. The drawback feom a historical point of view with oral tradition, is that stories tend to gain varying degree of embellishment through time, and deep respect and admiration of forebearers often inadvertantly adds considerable dimension referring to them. This does not mean that oral tradition in Native American history is untrue or questionable, but recognizes that metaphoric context can often present unique challenges in scholarly perspective. My deep fascination in American Indian history in only exceeded by my profound respect for thier culture. I think that the Comanches and thier nominal allies, the Kiowa, probably did raid into Mexico to the degree described by Gonzalo, but if any raid by them did reach that much further into Mexico or Mesoamerica, it would most likely have been a singular event. Thier primary purpose in raiding was to obtain horses, and these were readily available wherever the Spanish were, in Texas, New Mexico, and northern Mexico. I cannot imagine why they would travel this great distance to obtain what was available much closer. Travelling great distances however, was not an all unusual in historical times, as I am discovering more and more, and these tribes did travel more often toward Canada. The evidence of trade items with southwestern tribes from faraway places, including Mesoamerica, were most likely obtained through intertribal contact and networking, rather than singular forays of the entire distance. This is much the same in the history of trade worldwide. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 14th October 2008 at 12:36 AM.

20th November 2008, 09:16 PM	#3
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	I know this doesn't deal directly with Spanish colonial lances, but as for how far south Kiowa raids went, they definitely went south of San Luis Potosi, although they ususally were to areas farther north. My great, great, great grandfather was captured around San Luis Potosi according to my family's oral traditions. He was the father of the original Aiontay, whose name I carry. As for the monkeys, the story was written down by Scott Mommaday in his book "Way to Rainy Mountain", but it is also pretty well known among the Kiowas. Basically, a war party decided to go as far south as they could go, and only turned back when they got to an area where they saw little furry men with tails in the trees above them. This was just too strange for them, and they headed back up north.

21st November 2008, 01:46 AM	#5
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	It makes sense, Aiontay. Welcome to the forum. I hope you can enrich this multicultural cauldron. Regards Gonzalo

21st November 2008, 02:24 AM	#6
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Thanks for the welcome. Yes, Jim, I'm Kiowa and Chickasaw. The Kiowas certainly covered some distances back in the old days; Zone-tay, the original Aiontay's wife who we descend from, was born on the headwaters of the Arkansas on a return trip from visiting the Crows. Of course, the Spanish also did a bit of travelling themselves. I should also point out that the Indians, or at least the Kiowas, didn't throw their lances. Also, while tomahawks were popular, they were more prestige items rather than actual weapons. My grandmother talked about the Kiowas using war clubs, but not tomahawks. The Kiowa ledger art I've seen shows spears and sabers used in combat, but no tomahawks. As for strange creatures, Mooney's collection of Kiowa shield designs shows one shield depicting an elephant! I can't read the written description since the scanned image doesn't show the writing very well, but it is clearly an elephant. I need to go back and comment on some of the threads regarding Kachin swords (nhtu) as well since I've spent time among the Kachins and actually have one that was given to me by a Kachin friend.