Chinese Smoking Pipe/Cudgel

[Rick]

In Samurai culture the Kiseru saw dual use as a pipe and weapon; Why not the Chinese also ?
Daggers may also be found hidden in Japanese examples but they are not common .
A Google image search using kiseru will show a lot of Japanese examples .


Paging Rich ..................

[Atlantia]

What a brilliant thread! I love these obscure concealed weapons.
Excellent work gentlemen! I shall watch this one with interest.

Regards
Gene

[Rick]

The following should not be considered fact :

From what I understand during the time (Edo, Meiji ??) when the Samurai were forbidden to carry swords the kiseru was a substitute weapon, and we're not talking concealed blades here .
Some were quite long, others were normal sized : mine would have filled the fist quite nicely .

Now I know you're thinking to yourself:"Okay, but can it cut a machine gun barrel ?? "

I wonder if there are 'forms' for pipe fighting ...?

[Klas Larsson]

I have seen rather long and thick smoking pipes for sale at a Chinese weapons dealers a few years ago, they where made of iron and overly robust, looking more like a Chinese mace than anything else, and he sold them as "concealed" weapons. I imagine they can be very efficient in a fight, and more so if you are good with swords and sabers.

I was reminded of that the other day when, at an auction, I saw some big opium pipes, and they struck me as really over sized and very thick and heavy, good enough for blunt trauma. The opium den of the late Qing dynasty may have been a not so safe place, particularly for a well dressed gentleman, and one with a woozy head... so they may come in handy there.

I wonder if there are 'forms' for pipe fighting ...?

There is a form for chop stick fighting here... not bad at all, its in the Xinyi Chuan tradition. On the some video, there is an elderly gentleman doing nice short saber / Dao form, that would fit well into the concept of of pipe fight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfwLX...eature=related

The chop stick form is in the end, but the other stuff is interesting to, if you like CMA. The little boy in the very beginning does some Xinyi Qigong moves that are for generating energy, nice.

I do a double stick form that is originally a double dao form, now using two 80-90 centimeter long red oak staffs, and that works well the other way around, doing it as double dao form. I have done it often with with dao down to 50 centimeters, and two big heavy pipes would fit right into it just as well you block with one and hit with the other

[Queequeg]

Originally Posted by Klas Larsson

I have seen rather long and thick smoking pipes for sale at a Chinese weapons dealers a few years ago, they where made of iron and overly robust, looking more like a Chinese mace than anything else, and he sold them as "concealed" weapons. I imagine they can be very efficient in a fight, and more so if you are good with swords and sabers.

I was reminded of that the other day when, at an auction, I saw some big opium pipes, and they struck me as really over sized and very thick and heavy, good enough for blunt trauma. The opium den of the late Qing dynasty may have been a not so safe place, particularly for a well dressed gentleman, and one with a woozy head... so they may come in handy there.


There is a form for chop stick fighting here... not bad at all, its in the Xinyi Chuan tradition. On the some video, there is an elderly gentleman doing nice short saber / Dao form, that would fit well into the concept of of pipe fight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfwLX...eature=related

The chop stick form is in the end, but the other stuff is interesting to, if you like CMA. The little boy in the very beginning does some Xinyi Qigong moves that are for generating energy, nice.

I do a double stick form that is originally a double dao form, now using two 80-90 centimeter long red oak staffs, and that works well the other way around, doing it as double dao form. I have done it often with with dao down to 50 centimeters, and two big heavy pipes would fit right into it just as well you block with one and hit with the other

Klas,

Neat stuff on the chopsticks! I agree that these things were purposely designed as cudgels, to be used in the dangerous opium dens and the neighborhoods around them. I don't think they just became bigger over the years because of, say, fashion, like the ruff collar did in Europe. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruff_(clothing) )

[Klas Larsson]

I practice pekiti-tirsia kali. I could use that pipe in the picutres I posted to do any of these movements, assuming the construction were strong enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKhFlVGNlv8&feature=user

Oh yes, I forgot about the Kali, that fits very well to pipe wielding
I have heard from practitioners of Kali sticks that they originate from Chinese saber / dao forms, that the local Chinese populations used. I like those small efficient moves of Kali. The old man in the Xinyi video I link to really looks a bit Kali to me, small moves compared to my own dao forms with big sweeping, huge circling moves, usually for longer swords. But once you can use a sword, you always can replace it with other long objects if they got enough weight. And jian forms can utilize an umbrella to stab and parry, but hitting wont do much good (bad?)...

[Jim McDougall]

Very esoteric topic!!!! and most interesting examples of weapons curiosa.

The Chinese opium den is almost cliche' in romantic literature and narrative, and these pipes are fascinating. I had not heard of them used as weapons, but as presented here, completely understandable. It seems that when it comes right down to it, nearly anything can become a 'weapon of opportunity', noting the martial art using fans as one example.

The weaponry of the ascetic fakirs in India seem to have remarkable similarity in concept, with the dagger concealed in one form of pipe shown here.

While noting the combination use of the Chinese pipe, I could not resist thinking of the Native American 'peace pipe' tomahawk. These Plains Indian items had the poll of the axe head in the form of a small pipe bowl, and these were highly symbolic in ceremony, and as a tool and weapon.
From what I understand, the 'tomahawk' (Algonquin, -tamahak) form of the 'calumet' (Fr.=reed) peace pipe, did not present until post contact.

Whenever these interesting socio-anthropological features are brought together in discussion noting similarity, it is fascinating to consider the dynamics of cross cultural influences.

......'ere!

All the best,
Jim

[Queequeg]

Rick,

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if there are 'forms' for pipe fighting ...?

I practice pekiti-tirsia kali. I could use that pipe in the picutres I posted to do any of these movements, assuming the construction were strong enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKhFlVGNlv8&feature=user