The chhatri or umbrella

Jens Nordlunde · 6th October 2008, 04:25 PM

Gonezalo, good post, and I agree that it is, at best, a very complex subject to discus.

The link you give is a good one, and it makes me wonder why/how such a connection started and was kept, between Nepal and Bengal – far apart, but still very close, which is most interesting.

I don’t believe that all koras with the ‘eye’ were used for sacrifice, but my knowledge on kores is not very big, so I better not start a discussion on this subject. However the ‘eye’ was used in several other ways, on stupas, on boats and so, so I believe that it was used fairly widely, and maybe had more than one meaning.

Arjan, thank you for the title and the quote. It is, like I said, the first time I have seen the umbrella and the tree of life connected, but if they are connected, like the author says, this gives the subject a new dimension. Besides, I think the knowledge most of us have on this subject lacks a lot of knowledge and understanding – which is hard to find/get, unless you look very hard for it.

Jens

ksbhati · 6th October 2008, 04:47 PM

Hi !

Standard Marks of Royalty were the Chattar or the Umbrella, Chanwar or the Yaks Tail fly wisk, Nishan or the standards and Banners, Nagara or the Royal Drums.

I think one would be correct in presuming that pieces with the Umbrella or Chattar are royal pieces (provided they are old of course as imitations are not infrequent).

Just my two bits...

Jens Nordlunde · 6th October 2008, 06:19 PM

Hi Karni, nice to hear from you. Yes you are right, of course, but a thing like drums were given to people other than to royalty, generals and other high members of the community. The fact that a eunuch in a battle used a very high quality sword, with an umbrella mark,, does not mean he was royal, he may have been a body guard.

Jens

ksbhati · 10th October 2008, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Karni, nice to hear from you. Yes you are right, of course, but a thing like drums were given to people other than to royalty, generals and other high members of the community. The fact that a eunuch in a battle used a very high quality sword, with an umbrella mark,, does not mean he was royal, he may have been a body guard.

Jens

Hi Jens,

Weapons change hands all the time. There is an old saying "A weapon has no Masters...only the person wielding it!!". Just because the Eunuch was found with the weapon does not make him the original owner of the weapon. Captured Royal weapons of enemies may have been given to Eunuchs as a sign of disdain or contempt or to insult the vanquished in court. Also many Eunuchs were body guards specially of the Royal ladies and they may have had the right to use of royal weapons/arsenal. So it is difficult to say.

Best regards,

Karni

Jens Nordlunde · 20th October 2008, 12:19 PM

Egerton p. 125 writes about the Codrington Collection and mentions some of the things, and at one point he writes, ”Ch’hata. Red cotton velvet parasol, embroidered with gold. Mysore 1850. This is only permitted to be worn by such persons as have been presented with it by their prince”.

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd February 2019, 09:22 PM

Hi Mytribalworld,
Have you found out something about the eye since last - about ten years!
I think it is interesting, as several peoples have used the eye, so it is/was known world wide. But the meaning could have been quite different. It is, none the less, very interesting.
I do hope you will write again, as your findings will be very interesting to us.

As to the umbrella. I have two, one is very elegant inlaid in gold, and the other one is quite crude. My judgement is that the first one is from the Mughal time, and the other one is from the time after Aurangzeb, as it is quite crude and not gold inlaid. It seems as if after Aurangzeb, the parolsol was used by anyone who would like to be pompous, but not royal.

Jim McDougall · 2nd February 2019, 10:57 PM

Amazing! Jens, thank you for bringing back this thread!!!!
What a perfect background for the questions at hand of late and now we can use this background to add to! Thank you so much

Gonzalo G · 7th October 2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

The link you give is a good one, and it makes me wonder why/how such a connection started and was kept, between Nepal and Bengal – far apart, but still very close, which is most interesting.

I don’t believe that all koras with the ‘eye’ were used for sacrifice, but my knowledge on kores is not very big, so I better not start a discussion on this subject. However the ‘eye’ was used in several other ways, on stupas, on boats and so, so I believe that it was used fairly widely, and maybe had more than one meaning.

Jens, I just only wanted to explore one line of connection and explanation among the use of the eye, and it´s relation with hinduism. This, in response on the last two lines in black in the post from Mandaukudi. I would not point for certain, a relation among Bengal and Nepal, and neither about the sacrificial meaning of the eye over every sword blade. There are other lines to explore, but I´m afraid that many sources are written in oriental languajes.
Regards

Gonzalo

rand · 9th October 2008, 02:39 AM

Page 101, number 60 in <"The Art of the Mamluks", by Bashir Mohamed. The parosol/umbrella is said to mean to having been stored in royal armory.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th October 2008, 04:04 PM

Gonzalo, the ’eye’ can be found in many cultures, and it seems as if it can have different meanings. Some of the meanings are, no doubt, long lost, but the tradition still live.

Rand, you are right, the general idea is, that the umbrella was used on the ruler’s private weapons, and maybe on the weapons of his lifeguard. I have however seen an umbrella crudely chiselled into a blade. No gold on the blade, only the chiselling, and it did not give you a feeling of royalty – otherwise the sword could have belonged to a ruler, had it not been for the chiselling.

9th October 2008, 02:39 AM	#9
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Chhatri listed as showing it was in royal arsenal Page 101, number 60 in <"The Art of the Mamluks", by Bashir Mohamed. The parosol/umbrella is said to mean to having been stored in royal armory. Attached Images

6th October 2008, 04:25 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gonezalo, good post, and I agree that it is, at best, a very complex subject to discus. The link you give is a good one, and it makes me wonder why/how such a connection started and was kept, between Nepal and Bengal – far apart, but still very close, which is most interesting. I don’t believe that all koras with the ‘eye’ were used for sacrifice, but my knowledge on kores is not very big, so I better not start a discussion on this subject. However the ‘eye’ was used in several other ways, on stupas, on boats and so, so I believe that it was used fairly widely, and maybe had more than one meaning. Arjan, thank you for the title and the quote. It is, like I said, the first time I have seen the umbrella and the tree of life connected, but if they are connected, like the author says, this gives the subject a new dimension. Besides, I think the knowledge most of us have on this subject lacks a lot of knowledge and understanding – which is hard to find/get, unless you look very hard for it. Jens

6th October 2008, 04:47 PM	#2
ksbhati Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Rajasthan, INDIA Posts: 25	Hi ! Standard Marks of Royalty were the Chattar or the Umbrella, Chanwar or the Yaks Tail fly wisk, Nishan or the standards and Banners, Nagara or the Royal Drums. I think one would be correct in presuming that pieces with the Umbrella or Chattar are royal pieces (provided they are old of course as imitations are not infrequent). Just my two bits...

6th October 2008, 06:19 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Karni, nice to hear from you. Yes you are right, of course, but a thing like drums were given to people other than to royalty, generals and other high members of the community. The fact that a eunuch in a battle used a very high quality sword, with an umbrella mark,, does not mean he was royal, he may have been a body guard. Jens

20th October 2008, 12:19 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Egerton p. 125 writes about the Codrington Collection and mentions some of the things, and at one point he writes, ”Ch’hata. Red cotton velvet parasol, embroidered with gold. Mysore 1850. This is only permitted to be worn by such persons as have been presented with it by their prince”.

2nd February 2019, 09:22 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Mytribalworld, Have you found out something about the eye since last - about ten years! I think it is interesting, as several peoples have used the eye, so it is/was known world wide. But the meaning could have been quite different. It is, none the less, very interesting. I do hope you will write again, as your findings will be very interesting to us. As to the umbrella. I have two, one is very elegant inlaid in gold, and the other one is quite crude. My judgement is that the first one is from the Mughal time, and the other one is from the time after Aurangzeb, as it is quite crude and not gold inlaid. It seems as if after Aurangzeb, the parolsol was used by anyone who would like to be pompous, but not royal.

2nd February 2019, 10:57 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Amazing! Jens, thank you for bringing back this thread!!!! What a perfect background for the questions at hand of late and now we can use this background to add to! Thank you so much

9th October 2008, 04:04 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gonzalo, the ’eye’ can be found in many cultures, and it seems as if it can have different meanings. Some of the meanings are, no doubt, long lost, but the tradition still live. Rand, you are right, the general idea is, that the umbrella was used on the ruler’s private weapons, and maybe on the weapons of his lifeguard. I have however seen an umbrella crudely chiselled into a blade. No gold on the blade, only the chiselling, and it did not give you a feeling of royalty – otherwise the sword could have belonged to a ruler, had it not been for the chiselling.