Howdah Pistol

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2008, 07:02 PM

Hi Bill and Richard,
I can see how excited you must be to get this piece Bill, I'm right with ya! I keep thinking of your 'museum' there and it really must be a fantastic place for adventures. I recall my den when I would retreat coming home from the chaos of work, heading straight there and my wife would always say, "where are you headed tonight?" and I would say Africa, India, Central Asia or whatever the mood was. It is truly the passion that drives all of us in our collecting and study of these fantastic historical weapons.

Great observations Richard! Its really exciting to see the incredible posts here on firearms, and the interest and expertise on them that has apparantly been latent for so long. I'm glad that this expanded scope has brought this area forward and very much look forward to learning more these and on all these fields of collecting arms and armour.

On the straight rifling, again I emphasize I am a complete novice at firearms, but just a thought. Since these guns were for firing at extremely close range, could it be that rifling would not be needed for trajectory, and would just propel the load straight?
Actually I didn't think that shotguns were rifled as they were firing shot that was controlled by the 'choke' or pattern of the buckshot which depended on the barrel length. Since this is what seems to me essentially a sawed off shotgun, I thought it would be smoothbore.

I've always thought sawed off shotguns were pretty formidable weapons, and most of my interest came from studying the gunfighters of the 'wild west'.The the 'coach guns' carried by the 'shotgun' rider who was sort of the western version of the gunner on WWII bombers come to mind.

Bill, I know what you mean on the black powder firing. I had a most interesting singular experience firing an old black powder musket, and the dynamics were pretty impressive. Even more stunning was that myself, completely alien to guns, actually hit my target!!!

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 1st October 2008, 08:03 PM

Hi Bill, welcome to this part of the world

.
It is only natural that we tend to think that the sense of rifling is that of causing a determined rotation in the bullet, to avoid air resistence and therefore promote projectile direction 'straightness', which is an undeniable fact. Such rifling is grooved in the different barrels with a diverse rotary 'pass', depending on the distinct models and respective patents.
But it seems as there is another version/option called 'straight rifling', which is a rather different thing and serves a somehow opposite purpose, mainly uded in shot guns, i think relative to avoid the wad (and the lead) to freely (randomly?) spin, causing the dispersion of the shot pellets charge, when wanted otherwise.
As rifling is a term intrinsecal to the spinning efect, one (i) thend to think it would be more correct to call this version straight grooving ... but i am wandering

.
Just try and draw what is usefull, from all i said ... and with some reserve

. Others can put this more technicaly, of course.
Fernando

Bill M · 1st October 2008, 11:11 PM

I met with an expert on older guns today. I asked him about the "straight rifling." He informed me of something that was so obvious I should have seen it from the start.

It was to prevent or at least postpone fouling. Has nothing to do with trajectory or bullet rotation.

I wonder if rifled guns fouled less than smoothbores? I bet they did.

Richard,

So good to see you on this forum! From your posts on British Militaria, you have a LOT to contribute!

Thanks for your information. Would love to see the article on Howdah pistols.

Fernando,

Good to be here. I may be getting the Jaziel(?) Afghan rifle down down a little oiling.

Jim,

Yeah, I do feel like "tonight I am going to Africa." The Tsavo lion is in our bedroom. Though he is frozen in mid-leap, sometimes I catch a glimpse of him from the corner of my eye and he seems to be watching.

Sometimes Anne and I go around our house holding only one candle. Total darkness otherwise. I suggest doing this. You can see things by candlelight that are not there with room lighting.

I also have my eye on a store near me that sells powder, percussion caps, bullets and supplies. I WILL be working with an expert in old guns before firig it. He has some other people who want to go to the range.

He has suggested that I really do not want full power loads in the howdah pistol, or the Snider because it will hurt!

fernando · 2nd October 2008, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

... It was to prevent or at least postpone fouling. Has nothing to do with trajectory or bullet rotation ...

Is that (only) so ?

I know my english isn't the best, but i am certain that the writings i spotted when i browsed for straight rifling ( i knew quite well about 'normal' rifling), meant something otherwise; passages like:

The straight rifling keeps the wad from spinning which keeps the pattern consistent from shot to shot.

or:

... The imperfections cause a twisting or turning of the wad as it travels along the barrel and unequal pressure leads to an uneven dispersion of the shot as it leaves the barrel and consequently the mirrored pattern and uneven dispersion on the target.
One way which was proposed to overcome this problem was to provide a new barrel in which straight lands were provided to ensure that the wad travelled down the barrel without twisting. Such a method will prevent the turning of the shot as it leaves the barrel and consequently the mirrored pattern and uneven dispersion on the target.

or even a picture of a gun with one barrel smooth and the other straight rifled, would never make me think that the intention of such system was to prevent barrel fouling.

I guess straight rifling nowadays serves purposes different than those applied in antique weaponry.
Visibly i have been reading the wrong material

.

Fernando

Bill M · 2nd October 2008, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Is that (only) so ?

I know my english isn't the best, but i am certain that the writings i spotted when i browsed for straight rifling ( i knew quite well about 'normal' rifling), meant something otherwise; passages like:

The straight rifling keeps the wad from spinning which keeps the pattern consistent from shot to shot.

or:

... The imperfections cause a twisting or turning of the wad as it travels along the barrel and unequal pressure leads to an uneven dispersion of the shot as it leaves the barrel and consequently the mirrored pattern and uneven dispersion on the target.
One way which was proposed to overcome this problem was to provide a new barrel in which straight lands were provided to ensure that the wad travelled down the barrel without twisting. Such a method will prevent the turning of the shot as it leaves the barrel and consequently the mirrored pattern and uneven dispersion on the target.

or even a picture of a gun with one barrel smooth and the other straight rifled, would never make me think that the intention of such system was to prevent barrel fouling.

I guess straight rifling nowadays serves purposes different than those applied in antique weaponry.
Visibly i have been reading the wrong material

.

Fernando

Ah, Fernando,

There can be more than one right answer to a question. Yours are as right as any others, maybe they ALL are right!.

I am curious as to why other manufacturers did not make more use of straight rifling?

Also maybe there is a way we can date weapons with this feature. When was it first done?

Keeping multiple projectiles more or less together is also a good idea. Note the "Ball and Buck" loads. One ball and three buckshot.

These guys knew how to hurt!

Pukka Bundook · 2nd October 2008, 04:01 AM

Bill,

I'm not sure if it was the first time around, but straight rifling in shotguns,
(fowling pieces) was popular for a short time in the mid 18th century.
They did indeed throw shot in a very uniform manner, but it had to be of the correct size, that fit exactly in the rifling grooves. (round bottomed grooves.)

The fad did not last very long, as the barrels hed to be somewhat heavier then a normal fowler barrel.

What I said earlier about reduction of friction, is the same as reducing the effect of fouling.
The smaller the area that the ball/patch is in contact with, the less the resistance in loading. That might be the theory, but others will argue that a smooth bright bore is best!

Something has just come to mind; (mind,...what mind?!)

18th century German rifles, made for boar hunting also had straight rifled barrels.
I think in George Shumway's book "Jeager Rifles" he states that the rifling was cut in this manner to facilitate rapid reloading,...the ball could be shoved down the bore faster than through a bore with conventional rifling.
This would be a good idea when boar hunting with a single-shot gun!
Re. accuracy, not much difference out to 70 yds. and your pistol was designed to be fired within a few yards,...at something moving, so the rifling wouldn't make much difference.

All the best,

Richard.

kahnjar1 · 2nd October 2008, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Is that (only) so ?

I know my english isn't the best, but i am certain that the writings i spotted when i browsed for straight rifling ( i knew quite well about 'normal' rifling), meant something otherwise; passages like:

The straight rifling keeps the wad from spinning which keeps the pattern consistent from shot to shot.

or:

... The imperfections cause a twisting or turning of the wad as it travels along the barrel and unequal pressure leads to an uneven dispersion of the shot as it leaves the barrel and consequently the mirrored pattern and uneven dispersion on the target.
One way which was proposed to overcome this problem was to provide a new barrel in which straight lands were provided to ensure that the wad travelled down the barrel without twisting. Such a method will prevent the turning of the shot as it leaves the barrel and consequently the mirrored pattern and uneven dispersion on the target.

or even a picture of a gun with one barrel smooth and the other straight rifled, would never make me think that the intention of such system was to prevent barrel fouling.

I guess straight rifling nowadays serves purposes different than those applied in antique weaponry.
Visibly i have been reading the wrong material

.

Fernando

Hi Fernando,
Guns with one smooth and one rifled barrel, placed side by side were popularly known as "Capeguns" and are still called this in collectors circles. They saw use in the CAPE, and other parts of Africa where it was never certain what sort of game one would encounter. eg:4 legs or 2 plus wings,---or for that matter just 2 legs! Either way the correct projectile was available.
The Continentals went one better by mating a rifle barrel with 2 smoothbore barrels.
Straight rifling is a new one on me, and if it was used in place of the standard twist type, it could only have made muzzleloading easier. I personally have no idea what the benefits would be for a breechloader.
Regards Stuart

1st October 2008, 08:03 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Bill, welcome to this part of the world . It is only natural that we tend to think that the sense of rifling is that of causing a determined rotation in the bullet, to avoid air resistence and therefore promote projectile direction 'straightness', which is an undeniable fact. Such rifling is grooved in the different barrels with a diverse rotary 'pass', depending on the distinct models and respective patents. But it seems as there is another version/option called 'straight rifling', which is a rather different thing and serves a somehow opposite purpose, mainly uded in shot guns, i think relative to avoid the wad (and the lead) to freely (randomly?) spin, causing the dispersion of the shot pellets charge, when wanted otherwise. As rifling is a term intrinsecal to the spinning efect, one (i) thend to think it would be more correct to call this version straight grooving ... but i am wandering . Just try and draw what is usefull, from all i said ... and with some reserve . Others can put this more technicaly, of course. Fernando Last edited by fernando; 1st October 2008 at 08:21 PM.

1st October 2008, 11:11 PM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I met with an expert on older guns today. I asked him about the "straight rifling." He informed me of something that was so obvious I should have seen it from the start. It was to prevent or at least postpone fouling. Has nothing to do with trajectory or bullet rotation. I wonder if rifled guns fouled less than smoothbores? I bet they did. Richard, So good to see you on this forum! From your posts on British Militaria, you have a LOT to contribute! Thanks for your information. Would love to see the article on Howdah pistols. Fernando, Good to be here. I may be getting the Jaziel(?) Afghan rifle down down a little oiling. Jim, Yeah, I do feel like "tonight I am going to Africa." The Tsavo lion is in our bedroom. Though he is frozen in mid-leap, sometimes I catch a glimpse of him from the corner of my eye and he seems to be watching. Sometimes Anne and I go around our house holding only one candle. Total darkness otherwise. I suggest doing this. You can see things by candlelight that are not there with room lighting. I also have my eye on a store near me that sells powder, percussion caps, bullets and supplies. I WILL be working with an expert in old guns before firig it. He has some other people who want to go to the range. He has suggested that I really do not want full power loads in the howdah pistol, or the Snider because it will hurt! Last edited by Bill Marsh; 1st October 2008 at 11:25 PM.

1st October 2008, 07:02 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Hi Bill and Richard, I can see how excited you must be to get this piece Bill, I'm right with ya! I keep thinking of your 'museum' there and it really must be a fantastic place for adventures. I recall my den when I would retreat coming home from the chaos of work, heading straight there and my wife would always say, "where are you headed tonight?" and I would say Africa, India, Central Asia or whatever the mood was. It is truly the passion that drives all of us in our collecting and study of these fantastic historical weapons. Great observations Richard! Its really exciting to see the incredible posts here on firearms, and the interest and expertise on them that has apparantly been latent for so long. I'm glad that this expanded scope has brought this area forward and very much look forward to learning more these and on all these fields of collecting arms and armour. On the straight rifling, again I emphasize I am a complete novice at firearms, but just a thought. Since these guns were for firing at extremely close range, could it be that rifling would not be needed for trajectory, and would just propel the load straight? Actually I didn't think that shotguns were rifled as they were firing shot that was controlled by the 'choke' or pattern of the buckshot which depended on the barrel length. Since this is what seems to me essentially a sawed off shotgun, I thought it would be smoothbore. I've always thought sawed off shotguns were pretty formidable weapons, and most of my interest came from studying the gunfighters of the 'wild west'.The the 'coach guns' carried by the 'shotgun' rider who was sort of the western version of the gunner on WWII bombers come to mind. Bill, I know what you mean on the black powder firing. I had a most interesting singular experience firing an old black powder musket, and the dynamics were pretty impressive. Even more stunning was that myself, completely alien to guns, actually hit my target!!! All the best, Jim

2nd October 2008, 04:01 AM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Bill, I'm not sure if it was the first time around, but straight rifling in shotguns, (fowling pieces) was popular for a short time in the mid 18th century. They did indeed throw shot in a very uniform manner, but it had to be of the correct size, that fit exactly in the rifling grooves. (round bottomed grooves.) The fad did not last very long, as the barrels hed to be somewhat heavier then a normal fowler barrel. What I said earlier about reduction of friction, is the same as reducing the effect of fouling. The smaller the area that the ball/patch is in contact with, the less the resistance in loading. That might be the theory, but others will argue that a smooth bright bore is best! Something has just come to mind; (mind,...what mind?!) 18th century German rifles, made for boar hunting also had straight rifled barrels. I think in George Shumway's book "Jeager Rifles" he states that the rifling was cut in this manner to facilitate rapid reloading,...the ball could be shoved down the bore faster than through a bore with conventional rifling. This would be a good idea when boar hunting with a single-shot gun! Re. accuracy, not much difference out to 70 yds. and your pistol was designed to be fired within a few yards,...at something moving, so the rifling wouldn't make much difference. All the best, Richard.