?????? Helmet

Norman McCormick · 25th September 2008, 09:35 PM

Hi Jim,
Thanks for your observations I forgot to add that all the rivet holes have been punched through and not drilled.
My Regards,
Norman.

Mark · 26th September 2008, 02:10 PM

Is it possible that the support bands under the lobster tail were added later for display purposes? The rivets on the tail appear to be more rounded than on other parts of the helmet.

Norman McCormick · 26th September 2008, 08:57 PM

Hi Mark,
This had crossed my mind but the rivets are not significantly different to the ones on the visor and the metal of the 'support' and the lames look contemporary to one another. On very close inspection the 'support' is the mechanism that is keeping the lames together as they are not riveted to each other but each one individually to the 'support'. The more I look at this the more it becomes an enigma sometimes 'Victorian copy' sometimes older. I have asked myself why rivet the lames to a support for display it would display alright without the support, all the genuine ones I've seen don't need extra support for display. If it was meant to be used I can only think that maybe it is designed to accommodate some other item of clothing and/or armour or the smith was making from memory and not from plan/example. Keep the ideas coming, I would like to get to the bottom of this if possible. Thanks again guys.
My Regards,
Norman.
P.S. There is a hole in the crown of the helmet where a ring should be and there is also a hole at the rear possibly for a plume holder ?

ward · 27th September 2008, 07:59 PM

Dont know much about these so for what its worth I read some neck guards were made rigid later in the evolution maybe thiswas retrofitted for some reason.
Also the plate that connects the peak is really well done havent seen another like that.
Nice piece

fernando · 29th September 2008, 12:15 AM

Hi Norman,
Can i add here two more ( genuine) examples for your perusal?
The first one has four articulated blades. This is such one used during the British civil war, having been largely imported from the Nederlands, to equip the Royal troops.
The second example was a variation used by Harquebusiers and Light cavalry afected to the Parliament, headed by Cromwell, during English Republican revolution (1643-1660). Most probably a specimen produced in London by the couple Rafe Boulter and Silvester Keene, whom worked together until 1649. In this case the lobster tail is fix, showing five false blades. There is a 'porte plumes' on the bowl back. The perspective of this model gives us a clear idea why Cromwell troops were known as roundheads ... a term already quoted above.
(Text and pictures from 'As Armas e os Barões' by Eduardo Nobre).
I hope these examples are of minimum interest.
Fernando

Norman McCormick · 1st November 2008, 07:38 PM

Hi Fernando,
First of all please accept my apologies for not acknowledging your post sooner, I've been a bit indisposed for a while. These examples are indeed of interest and it has amazed me while investigating this helmet just how much variation there is in these Lobstertail/Roundhead helmets.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 1st November 2008, 07:54 PM

Allways at your disposal, Norman

Fernando

26th September 2008, 08:57 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Mark, This had crossed my mind but the rivets are not significantly different to the ones on the visor and the metal of the 'support' and the lames look contemporary to one another. On very close inspection the 'support' is the mechanism that is keeping the lames together as they are not riveted to each other but each one individually to the 'support'. The more I look at this the more it becomes an enigma sometimes 'Victorian copy' sometimes older. I have asked myself why rivet the lames to a support for display it would display alright without the support, all the genuine ones I've seen don't need extra support for display. If it was meant to be used I can only think that maybe it is designed to accommodate some other item of clothing and/or armour or the smith was making from memory and not from plan/example. Keep the ideas coming, I would like to get to the bottom of this if possible. Thanks again guys. My Regards, Norman. P.S. There is a hole in the crown of the helmet where a ring should be and there is also a hole at the rear possibly for a plume holder ? Last edited by Norman McCormick; 26th September 2008 at 09:52 PM. Reason: More Info.

29th September 2008, 12:15 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	These were 'Capelinas' of the lobster tail type Hi Norman, Can i add here two more ( genuine) examples for your perusal? The first one has four articulated blades. This is such one used during the British civil war, having been largely imported from the Nederlands, to equip the Royal troops. The second example was a variation used by Harquebusiers and Light cavalry afected to the Parliament, headed by Cromwell, during English Republican revolution (1643-1660). Most probably a specimen produced in London by the couple Rafe Boulter and Silvester Keene, whom worked together until 1649. In this case the lobster tail is fix, showing five false blades. There is a 'porte plumes' on the bowl back. The perspective of this model gives us a clear idea why Cromwell troops were known as roundheads ... a term already quoted above. (Text and pictures from 'As Armas e os Barões' by Eduardo Nobre). I hope these examples are of minimum interest. Fernando Attached Images

25th September 2008, 09:35 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Jim, Thanks for your observations I forgot to add that all the rivet holes have been punched through and not drilled. My Regards, Norman.

26th September 2008, 02:10 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Is it possible that the support bands under the lobster tail were added later for display purposes? The rivets on the tail appear to be more rounded than on other parts of the helmet.

27th September 2008, 07:59 PM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Dont know much about these so for what its worth I read some neck guards were made rigid later in the evolution maybe thiswas retrofitted for some reason. Also the plate that connects the peak is really well done havent seen another like that. Nice piece

1st November 2008, 07:38 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Fernando, First of all please accept my apologies for not acknowledging your post sooner, I've been a bit indisposed for a while. These examples are indeed of interest and it has amazed me while investigating this helmet just how much variation there is in these Lobstertail/Roundhead helmets. My Regards, Norman.

1st November 2008, 07:54 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Allways at your disposal, Norman Fernando