true or false: most viking blades where frankish

chevalier · 24th September 2008, 01:43 AM

i also seem to remember one or mulitple popes issueing edicts during that time that european swordsmiths where, on pain of death, not to "ply their wares among the muslims" or something to that effect.

also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

celtan · 24th September 2008, 02:31 AM

Not to be coy, diverse european christian nations allied themselves to the muslims at one time or another according to their interests at the time. British sappers assisted their moroccan allies to blow up the walls of spanish fortifications in 16th C. North Africa, and all british prisoners captured were invariably put to the sword. Even the French allied themselves with the Turks against the Hapsburgs.

One of the greatest worries of the Catholic Powers was that the Genoese and Venetians would actually prefer to join the Ottomans at Lepanto, and their tactics included the possibility of such happening, thus the overwhelming amount of veteran Tercios soldiers inside the Genoese and Venetian ships.

Heck, even within Spain and during the Reconquista Crusade, Christian lords would ally themselves with the local muslims againsta a common christian enemy and viceversa. Just read the Mio Cid ("My Lord")...

During the Spanish American War, while both sides were rattling their sabers and trying to blow each other to smithreens, Madrid and New York continued their trading and dealing as usual.

In Nam', often the SV officers sold their American-supplied weaponry to the VC, to be used against their own forces subsequently...

"Cosas veredes, Sancho" / "Such sights you will see, Sancho"
Don Quixote

Well, let's go back to issues germane...

: )

[chevalier]

...also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

Lee · 25th September 2008, 01:51 AM

I believe that it has been the 'conventional wisdom' that most Viking Age swords originated in the area that is now Solingen, particularly in the English language literature, based upon occasional contemporary written records and - I suspect - the more recent reputation of the region. The Franks indeed had a reputation for particularly good quality.

My own suspicion is that the blades, including pattern-welded ones, were made in fairly widely scattered workshops, however finished swords and sword blades were widely travelled and traded and of similar forms so it is probably not possible to prove this suspicion.

I remember when very reputable sources would advise that a blade would not have a pattern-welded structure and iron inlays. This holds pretty true for material recovered in the British isles, but in continental Europe, a number of blades with both features were well documented, particularly well in Lorange's plates. This and a generally smaller blade size in the British material hints to me of local manufacture.

Similarly, we were advised that the single-edged swords were of local Nordic manufacture and would not be pattern-welded as that came from specialized German/Frankish workshops. And yet, both features are seen together and, as modern bladesmiths frequently demonstrate, pattern-welding is a fairly basic technique, if one is proficient with their welds.

Interpretations are changing even now; a subset of the Ulfberht inlaid blades with high carbon contents are now deemed to have been made using crucible steel, presumably originating far to the east and traded via the Rus, as recently published by Alan Williams.

Ed · 25th September 2008, 01:37 PM

Seems like that small sample issue again.

celtan · 25th September 2008, 01:46 PM

There's a veddy intedestink little book, very nice to read, called "The archeology of weapons", by Oakeshott. If willing to read a little more on the subject, check page 143.

You're warned, the book is good, you may not be able to stop reading...

: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

I believe that it has been the 'conventional wisdom' that most Viking Age swords originated in the area that is now Solingen, particularly in the English language literature, based upon occasional contemporary written records and - I suspect - the more recent reputation of the region. The Franks indeed had a reputation for particularly good quality.

My own suspicion is that the blades, including pattern-welded ones, were made in fairly widely scattered workshops, however finished swords and sword blades were widely travelled and traded and of similar forms so it is probably not possible to prove this suspicion.

I remember when very reputable sources would advise that a blade would not have a pattern-welded structure and iron inlays. This holds pretty true for material recovered in the British isles, but in continental Europe, a number of blades with both features were well documented, particularly well in Lorange's plates. This and a generally smaller blade size in the British material hints to me of local manufacture.

Similarly, we were advised that the single-edged swords were of local Nordic manufacture and would not be pattern-welded as that came from specialized German/Frankish workshops. And yet, both features are seen together and, as modern bladesmiths frequently demonstrate, pattern-welding is a fairly basic technique, if one is proficient with their welds.

Interpretations are changing even now; a subset of the Ulfberht inlaid blades with high carbon contents are now deemed to have been made using crucible steel, presumably originating far to the east and traded via the Rus, as recently published by Alan Williams.

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

There's a veddy intedestink little book, very nice to read, called "The archeology of weapons", by Oakeshott. If willing to read a little more on the subject, check page 143.

You're warned, the book is good, you may not be able to stop reading...

: )

LOL! That truly is a 'veddy interesting little book' !

Actually it was the very first book on weapons I ever owned, I think it was back in 1965 (the book was published in '62). It really is very good, and unleashed a lifelong passion for me.
Another wonderful book on this subject is "Swords of the Viking Age" by Ian Pierce (copyright 2002, Lee A. Jones, Ewart Oakeshott, and Ian Pierce).
Lee was instrumental in producing this outstanding reference, in addition to authoring two of the key chapters.
Actually I knew of Lee's important work on Viking weapons before I actually met him years later, due to the important article he wrote in 1997, "The Serpent in the Sword: Pattern Welding in Early Medieval Swords".

I hope we will see some more discussion on these fantastic weapons...which truly are addicting!!

Jeff Pringle · 29th September 2008, 05:39 AM

I think much of the older ideas on this subject are being overwritten, but with a hefty grant one could compare trace element analyses of metal and slag inclusions (via non-invasive XRF or similar) between swords and smelting sites, and get a rather definitive answer.
These two papers are just the tip of the current research iceberg:

Indigenous and imported Viking Age weapons in Norway, a problem with European implications
Martens, Irmelin
http://www.archaeometry.dk/Jern/Mart...plications.pdf

The Vlfberht sword blades reevaluated
ANNE STALSBERG
http://jenny-rita.org/Annestamanus.pdf

Pukka Bundook · 29th September 2008, 03:21 PM

Jeff,

I haven't had time yet to read your links, (computer's Slow!) but just wanted to say that If Norse blades were imported, as it is generally believed, and If English blades were also imported as many believe, then the source of supply for these blades appears to have been initially different.

To quote H. E Davidson;

"So far, no pattern -welded blades from Scandanavia have appeared which are as early in date as the earliest Anglo-Saxon and continental finds."
(Sword in A-S England, p31)

Since not much evidence has been forthcoming for blades being made in England, (Unless that's what your link is about Jeff!)
It would seem that English blades were mostly "Frankish" but of a higher quality than those "exported" to Scandanavia.

Speaking of the pattern-welded sword from Eley fields, Myron pointed out;

I do not know of finer smiths' work any-where at any time"
(Davidson, p 29)

So, as a recap, it seems if norse blades were imported, the source was somewht different to that of A-Saxon England, at least in the earlier period.

Please forgive me not going to your link yet!
I will, ...and might have to revise my post accordingly!

Best wishes,

Richard.

25th September 2008, 01:51 AM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	My suspicions... I believe that it has been the 'conventional wisdom' that most Viking Age swords originated in the area that is now Solingen, particularly in the English language literature, based upon occasional contemporary written records and - I suspect - the more recent reputation of the region. The Franks indeed had a reputation for particularly good quality. My own suspicion is that the blades, including pattern-welded ones, were made in fairly widely scattered workshops, however finished swords and sword blades were widely travelled and traded and of similar forms so it is probably not possible to prove this suspicion. I remember when very reputable sources would advise that a blade would not have a pattern-welded structure and iron inlays. This holds pretty true for material recovered in the British isles, but in continental Europe, a number of blades with both features were well documented, particularly well in Lorange's plates. This and a generally smaller blade size in the British material hints to me of local manufacture. Similarly, we were advised that the single-edged swords were of local Nordic manufacture and would not be pattern-welded as that came from specialized German/Frankish workshops. And yet, both features are seen together and, as modern bladesmiths frequently demonstrate, pattern-welding is a fairly basic technique, if one is proficient with their welds. Interpretations are changing even now; a subset of the Ulfberht inlaid blades with high carbon contents are now deemed to have been made using crucible steel, presumably originating far to the east and traded via the Rus, as recently published by Alan Williams.

24th September 2008, 01:43 AM	#1
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	i also seem to remember one or mulitple popes issueing edicts during that time that european swordsmiths where, on pain of death, not to "ply their wares among the muslims" or something to that effect. also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

24th September 2008, 02:31 AM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Not to be coy, diverse european christian nations allied themselves to the muslims at one time or another according to their interests at the time. British sappers assisted their moroccan allies to blow up the walls of spanish fortifications in 16th C. North Africa, and all british prisoners captured were invariably put to the sword. Even the French allied themselves with the Turks against the Hapsburgs. One of the greatest worries of the Catholic Powers was that the Genoese and Venetians would actually prefer to join the Ottomans at Lepanto, and their tactics included the possibility of such happening, thus the overwhelming amount of veteran Tercios soldiers inside the Genoese and Venetian ships. Heck, even within Spain and during the Reconquista Crusade, Christian lords would ally themselves with the local muslims againsta a common christian enemy and viceversa. Just read the Mio Cid ("My Lord")... During the Spanish American War, while both sides were rattling their sabers and trying to blow each other to smithreens, Madrid and New York continued their trading and dealing as usual. In Nam', often the SV officers sold their American-supplied weaponry to the VC, to be used against their own forces subsequently... "Cosas veredes, Sancho" / "Such sights you will see, Sancho" Don Quixote Well, let's go back to issues germane... : ) [chevalier] ...also a few popes issued edicts against the sale of timber to the aghlabids in sicily and north africa, as the muslims had exhausted their usable supply of timber in both north africa and sicily by the 10th century and where buying wood from europe to build their fleets. of course the pope's edicts where openly flaunted by the venetians, who got a continuous supply of timber from croatia and slovenia and continued to sell to the muslims.

25th September 2008, 01:37 PM	#4
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 256	Seems like that small sample issue again.

29th September 2008, 05:39 AM	#7
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	I think much of the older ideas on this subject are being overwritten, but with a hefty grant one could compare trace element analyses of metal and slag inclusions (via non-invasive XRF or similar) between swords and smelting sites, and get a rather definitive answer. These two papers are just the tip of the current research iceberg: Indigenous and imported Viking Age weapons in Norway, a problem with European implications Martens, Irmelin http://www.archaeometry.dk/Jern/Mart...plications.pdf The Vlfberht sword blades reevaluated ANNE STALSBERG http://jenny-rita.org/Annestamanus.pdf

29th September 2008, 03:21 PM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jeff, I haven't had time yet to read your links, (computer's Slow!) but just wanted to say that If Norse blades were imported, as it is generally believed, and If English blades were also imported as many believe, then the source of supply for these blades appears to have been initially different. To quote H. E Davidson; "So far, no pattern -welded blades from Scandanavia have appeared which are as early in date as the earliest Anglo-Saxon and continental finds." (Sword in A-S England, p31) Since not much evidence has been forthcoming for blades being made in England, (Unless that's what your link is about Jeff!) It would seem that English blades were mostly "Frankish" but of a higher quality than those "exported" to Scandanavia. Speaking of the pattern-welded sword from Eley fields, Myron pointed out; I do not know of finer smiths' work any-where at any time" (Davidson, p 29) So, as a recap, it seems if norse blades were imported, the source was somewht different to that of A-Saxon England, at least in the earlier period. Please forgive me not going to your link yet! I will, ...and might have to revise my post accordingly! Best wishes, Richard.