Manual del Baratero - A Review

Chris Evans · 8th April 2005, 06:28 AM

Hi,

Here is a rather somber reminder of how the weapon bans were enforced in Old Spain. This illustration is by the renowned painter Francisco Goya who was active in the Napoleonic era. Scan taken from Forton's "La Navaja Espanola Antigua"

Frank: Got your meassge and I sent you my email address.

Cheers
Chris

tom hyle · 8th April 2005, 02:13 PM

All very interesting. Really, basically no traditional folding knife is really intended for violence, and the idea that they are tends to arise in just the sort of sheltered/oppressed environment described in Spain, where the disarmed develop an exaggerated horror of weapons and anything weaponlike. Folding knives, like any small knife, are certainly no equal match to a club or dagger, but are often resorted to (here and now in N America, I very strongly assure you) for emergency self-defence, and it is thus helpful and not at all fantastical or unrealistic, for them to be designed and selected with features that aid in that, such as locks, points, swedged spine. Butterfly knife is one some N Americans get real excercised over now days; how silly; a very ordinary locking folder style; nothing especially violent about it. The only exception is for switchblades, which are, and frankly always have been, like unto the giant folders, largely basically a toy. No few folding knives I can swat in half with my left hand, if they're held securely enough not to drop, and none of them are the ideal weapon, but they do have their uses; you can let all the blood out of someone in a grapple pretty well with one, if it's sharp (this is the most valuable feature, followed closely by a decent sturdiness, fast easy opening, then a lock, point, concealability, legal nonweapon status, etc.)

Chris Evans · 10th April 2005, 05:50 AM

Hi Tom,

You make excellent and valid points.

I guess, that the object lesson, if there is one, is for future historians not to fall into the trap of assuming that just because tactical folders were popular at the start of the 21st century, they were the best weapon for SD and therefore they must chosen over and above other weapons. Rather, that's what people defaulted to, because better weapons were banned or too many obstacles were placed in the path to their ownership, as was the caase with navajas.

The situation here in Australia is very similar to what you describe - I guess, we just follow US trends. Your superbly well made tactical folders, such as by CS and Benchmade adorn the display cases of our shops and sell in substantial numbers- Why? Because we have some of the toughest anti gun, sword and knife laws . And yet we also have fatal violence in the bigger cities in alarming numbers.

Cheers
Chris

Frank · 21st April 2005, 04:56 AM

Hi Everybody,

I just got a couple of book recomended by Chris: "Navajas Antiguas - Las Mejores Piezas de Coleccion" . Terrific book and a real eye opener. It is in Spanish and English and easy to read. The modern navajas dont look anything like these.

Also "La Navaja Espanola Antigua". This one is in Spanish and can't understand a word but the lots of pictures tell a story and it is full of facts and figures. I know someone who is Spanish and he has been helping me a little to translate. It is all like Chris said. Thanks mate.

Best wishes
Frank

Chris Evans · 23rd April 2005, 08:18 AM

Hi Frank

Happy to see that you are finding those books worth your while.

The one titled "Las Mejores Piezas de Coleccion" is the standard reference book for collectors and antiquarians. It is very useful for establishing the origin and approximate date of manufacture of navajas.

I don't know if you noticed the large number of absolutely fearsome looking and large navajas without a blade lock; It tells us something about the enforcement of the anti-blade lock laws and also that most were nowhere as formidable weapons as we are told - Hey, what did all those fearless Barateros fight with?

This is especially so, if we consider that by the mid 1800s the majority of the navajas in use in Spain had French origins and for most part these did not have locks (look at the French pages and what turns up on e-Bay).

What I found even more interesting is that some time ago I came across an antique that had a ratcheting mechanical lock in the typical Spanish manner but the rear of the blade notch was filed back so that the knife would close under pressure on the blade. Presumably this modification was done so as to conform to the laws forbidding locks.

Cheers
Chris

Frank · 28th April 2005, 04:47 AM

Chris

In your first post you said something about `Passata Sotto'. I couldn't see it in the book. What and wher is it and why is it bad.

Best wishes
Frank

tom hyle · 28th April 2005, 01:06 PM

Any commentary on that cool bolster?

8th April 2005, 06:28 AM	#1
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi, Here is a rather somber reminder of how the weapon bans were enforced in Old Spain. This illustration is by the renowned painter Francisco Goya who was active in the Napoleonic era. Scan taken from Forton's "La Navaja Espanola Antigua" Frank: Got your meassge and I sent you my email address. Cheers Chris Attached Images

23rd April 2005, 08:18 AM	#5
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Frank Happy to see that you are finding those books worth your while. The one titled "Las Mejores Piezas de Coleccion" is the standard reference book for collectors and antiquarians. It is very useful for establishing the origin and approximate date of manufacture of navajas. I don't know if you noticed the large number of absolutely fearsome looking and large navajas without a blade lock; It tells us something about the enforcement of the anti-blade lock laws and also that most were nowhere as formidable weapons as we are told - Hey, what did all those fearless Barateros fight with? This is especially so, if we consider that by the mid 1800s the majority of the navajas in use in Spain had French origins and for most part these did not have locks (look at the French pages and what turns up on e-Bay). What I found even more interesting is that some time ago I came across an antique that had a ratcheting mechanical lock in the typical Spanish manner but the rear of the blade notch was filed back so that the knife would close under pressure on the blade. Presumably this modification was done so as to conform to the laws forbidding locks. Cheers Chris Attached Images Last edited by Chris Evans; 23rd April 2005 at 08:43 AM. Reason: Picture does not show

8th April 2005, 02:13 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	All very interesting. Really, basically no traditional folding knife is really intended for violence, and the idea that they are tends to arise in just the sort of sheltered/oppressed environment described in Spain, where the disarmed develop an exaggerated horror of weapons and anything weaponlike. Folding knives, like any small knife, are certainly no equal match to a club or dagger, but are often resorted to (here and now in N America, I very strongly assure you) for emergency self-defence, and it is thus helpful and not at all fantastical or unrealistic, for them to be designed and selected with features that aid in that, such as locks, points, swedged spine. Butterfly knife is one some N Americans get real excercised over now days; how silly; a very ordinary locking folder style; nothing especially violent about it. The only exception is for switchblades, which are, and frankly always have been, like unto the giant folders, largely basically a toy. No few folding knives I can swat in half with my left hand, if they're held securely enough not to drop, and none of them are the ideal weapon, but they do have their uses; you can let all the blood out of someone in a grapple pretty well with one, if it's sharp (this is the most valuable feature, followed closely by a decent sturdiness, fast easy opening, then a lock, point, concealability, legal nonweapon status, etc.)

10th April 2005, 05:50 AM	#3
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Tom, You make excellent and valid points. I guess, that the object lesson, if there is one, is for future historians not to fall into the trap of assuming that just because tactical folders were popular at the start of the 21st century, they were the best weapon for SD and therefore they must chosen over and above other weapons. Rather, that's what people defaulted to, because better weapons were banned or too many obstacles were placed in the path to their ownership, as was the caase with navajas. The situation here in Australia is very similar to what you describe - I guess, we just follow US trends. Your superbly well made tactical folders, such as by CS and Benchmade adorn the display cases of our shops and sell in substantial numbers- Why? Because we have some of the toughest anti gun, sword and knife laws . And yet we also have fatal violence in the bigger cities in alarming numbers. Cheers Chris

21st April 2005, 04:56 AM	#4
Frank Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 23	Hi Everybody, I just got a couple of book recomended by Chris: "Navajas Antiguas - Las Mejores Piezas de Coleccion" . Terrific book and a real eye opener. It is in Spanish and English and easy to read. The modern navajas dont look anything like these. Also "La Navaja Espanola Antigua". This one is in Spanish and can't understand a word but the lots of pictures tell a story and it is full of facts and figures. I know someone who is Spanish and he has been helping me a little to translate. It is all like Chris said. Thanks mate. Best wishes Frank

28th April 2005, 04:47 AM	#6
Frank Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 23	Chris In your first post you said something about `Passata Sotto'. I couldn't see it in the book. What and wher is it and why is it bad. Best wishes Frank

28th April 2005, 01:06 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Any commentary on that cool bolster?