A hand cannon ... or not ?

Matchlock · 18th September 2008, 02:48 PM

Hi fernando,

I am so glad that you appreciated my lines on your fine and early 'hand gonne' (the historic term) barrel from Aljubarrota, and thanks for providing us with the additional information.

You also mentioned a book given away by a Portuguese bank and containing illustrations of matchlocks. Unfortunately I do not have that in my - otherwise quite comprehensive - library.

So if you could please be so nice and post those images, and also the bibliographical data of that book, I would be much obliged to you.

To sort of back up my opinion that barrels which are wound up of band iron and then fire welded rang among the earliest of their kind, I enclose an image of a massive cannon barrel of ca. 1350, made exactly that way. It is in the Musee de l'Armee in Paris and is about 1,80 meters in length, with the fore end of the muzzle gone. I put my bag next to it for statistic comparison.

Now if you look at my little Aljubarrota barrel of about the same date you will see the strikingly close relationship in both shape and make.

Looking forward to receiving more information, and lots of thanks in advance,

Matchlock

Matchlock · 18th September 2008, 02:55 PM

Oops, fernando,

Here are the correct images to my former posting: barrels in the Musee de l'Armee Paris and in my colletion.

Have fun,

Matchlock

katana · 18th September 2008, 05:11 PM

I must say that I am learning alot about firearms / cannons, thank you.

I am very pleased for Fernando that he has, now, the evidence that helps validate his 'cannon'

....good work Matchlock

Regards David

fernando · 18th September 2008, 06:11 PM

Hi Matchlock,
After all, it's quite a few pictures in total, whether you already know some or all of them ... as well as the other friendly forumites.
In order not to invade the thread with the size of so many images, i will only post photobucket links, with the pictures in a medium format, with some of them pasted in couples, and with legends in roughly translated English.
In case you are interested in filing some of them, i still keep the scans in large format, to be able to email them directly to you ... or anyone interested, of course.
The book is not propperly an armoury work. It is called OITO SÉCULOS DE CAÇA EM PORTUGAL ( Eight centuries of hunting in Portugal), by Miguel Sanches de Baêna and João Maria Bravo, with a comprehensive evolution on weaponry (not only for hunting), including a section on primitive firearms.
It was a courtesy of bank BPI (Banco Português de Investimentos), an exclusive edition of 3500 copies. ISBN 972-8076-35-5 printed in 1998. As a bank courtesy should be, it's a "de luxe" graphic work.

Atlantia · 18th September 2008, 06:38 PM

Great thread!

I bet you are chuffed with this outcome Fernando?

The icing on the cake for your hard work and faith that this was indeed a weapon.

David, I bet you're as relieved as I am that we didn't encourage Fernando to weaponise an off-cut of scaffolding pole? ;-)

Regards
Gene

katana · 18th September 2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

David, I bet you're as relieved as I am that we didn't encourage Fernando to weaponise an off-cut of scaffolding pole? ;-)

Regards
Gene

Regards David

fernando · 18th September 2008, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... David, I bet you're as relieved as I am that we didn't encourage Fernando to weaponise an off-cut of scaffolding pole? ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

What's so funny ? ... i don't get it

Fernando

Atlantia · 18th September 2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

What's so funny ? ... i don't get it

Fernando

LOL, I'm saying it would have been very embarrassing for those like David and me who encouraged the hand cannon theory, if you had done all the work to re-stock it and it had turned out to be something 'civilian'.

Regards
Gene

Matchlock · 18th September 2008, 06:53 PM

Thank you so much for sharing those historical documents, Fernando!

I knew most of them as they have been widely published in different books but am especially interested in receiving a high-resolution scan of the one attached below, which is part of a series of watercolor cardboards depicting scenes from the Tunis War in 1535.
As was the case with the drawings of scenes from the Batte of Pavia a decade earlier, there was a series of Brussels tapestries made based on these live drawings.

I am an awful computer layman and do not know how to send a private message to members. This is why I am asking you to send one to me.

I am planning post more of the Tunis Battle later on.

Again, thank you!
Matchlock

fernando · 18th September 2008, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I am an awful computer layman and do not know how to send a private message to members. This is why I am asking you to send one.

I have just sent you a private message. Please see if it fits you.
Fernando

fernando · 18th September 2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

... the evidence that helps validate his 'cannon'

... And i can only thank you David , in the name of my said 'cannon'

Fernando

18th September 2008, 02:48 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Matchlocks - book by a Portuguese bank Hi fernando, I am so glad that you appreciated my lines on your fine and early 'hand gonne' (the historic term) barrel from Aljubarrota, and thanks for providing us with the additional information. You also mentioned a book given away by a Portuguese bank and containing illustrations of matchlocks. Unfortunately I do not have that in my - otherwise quite comprehensive - library. So if you could please be so nice and post those images, and also the bibliographical data of that book, I would be much obliged to you. To sort of back up my opinion that barrels which are wound up of band iron and then fire welded rang among the earliest of their kind, I enclose an image of a massive cannon barrel of ca. 1350, made exactly that way. It is in the Musee de l'Armee in Paris and is about 1,80 meters in length, with the fore end of the muzzle gone. I put my bag next to it for statistic comparison. Now if you look at my little Aljubarrota barrel of about the same date you will see the strikingly close relationship in both shape and make. Looking forward to receiving more information, and lots of thanks in advance, Matchlock Attached Images

18th September 2008, 02:55 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Mid-14th century barrels wound up of band iron Oops, fernando, Here are the correct images to my former posting: barrels in the Musee de l'Armee Paris and in my colletion. Have fun, Matchlock Attached Images

18th September 2008, 06:11 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Matchlock, After all, it's quite a few pictures in total, whether you already know some or all of them ... as well as the other friendly forumites. In order not to invade the thread with the size of so many images, i will only post photobucket links, with the pictures in a medium format, with some of them pasted in couples, and with legends in roughly translated English. In case you are interested in filing some of them, i still keep the scans in large format, to be able to email them directly to you ... or anyone interested, of course. The book is not propperly an armoury work. It is called OITO SÉCULOS DE CAÇA EM PORTUGAL ( Eight centuries of hunting in Portugal), by Miguel Sanches de Baêna and João Maria Bravo, with a comprehensive evolution on weaponry (not only for hunting), including a section on primitive firearms. It was a courtesy of bank BPI (Banco Português de Investimentos), an exclusive edition of 3500 copies. ISBN 972-8076-35-5 printed in 1998. As a bank courtesy should be, it's a "de luxe" graphic work. Last edited by fernando; 14th August 2022 at 02:56 PM.

18th September 2008, 06:53 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much for sharing those historical documents, Fernando! I knew most of them as they have been widely published in different books but am especially interested in receiving a high-resolution scan of the one attached below, which is part of a series of watercolor cardboards depicting scenes from the Tunis War in 1535. As was the case with the drawings of scenes from the Batte of Pavia a decade earlier, there was a series of Brussels tapestries made based on these live drawings. I am an awful computer layman and do not know how to send a private message to members. This is why I am asking you to send one to me. I am planning post more of the Tunis Battle later on. Again, thank you! Matchlock Attached Images

18th September 2008, 05:11 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I must say that I am learning alot about firearms / cannons, thank you. I am very pleased for Fernando that he has, now, the evidence that helps validate his 'cannon' ....good work Matchlock Regards David

18th September 2008, 06:38 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Great thread! I bet you are chuffed with this outcome Fernando? The icing on the cake for your hard work and faith that this was indeed a weapon. David, I bet you're as relieved as I am that we didn't encourage Fernando to weaponise an off-cut of scaffolding pole? ;-) Regards Gene