machetes,, regional styles..

Gonzalo G · 7th September 2008, 10:52 AM

I find many questionable statements in that article. From the concept of the machete, to the history of it´s development in America and it´s types. The machete, as we actually know it, is the result of an evolution which begins in Spain, and not with the whacking sticks of aboriginal americans. This evolution implies many diverse forms, geometries and measures, some of which are reflected on the actual machetes. The machete has been, historically, a tool and a weapon, even today, no matter the intentions of their actual manofacturers. We produce and use still today in Mexico, machetes with hanguards and elaboratedly hilts with eagle pommels decorated with silver, and blades with etched inscriptions tipical of the motos used on the military swords. And people use them as a weapon.

Tough the machete have been progressively used more as a tool than as a weapon, since it´s origins and difussion throught the spanish army, and latter throught the spanish settlers, the machetes were used by the commoneers to make war or to work on the fields in agricultural and cattle raising activities. The spanish army, by Royal Order of october 5th, 1841, adopted the machete for all the infantry and provincial militias, since the saber "...in the present cirumstances and the actual state in the art of the war, it is a a bothersome and impeding weapon on the march and manoeuvres, useless on encampments and combats". (Free traslation form a quote made by José Luis Calvó, a distinguished researcher on this subject, on his article "Sables, Espadas y Machetes Distintivo de Clases de a Pié I", page 27). In other words, the machete was adopted as the sidearm of the infantry, artillery and engineer corps since then.

This, conducted to the development of some colonial versions of the military machete on Cuba and the Phillipines, and influenced the versions of this weapon in Mexico, thought independent from Spain since 1821. The very war of independence of Mexico, and latter the civil wars and the wars made against foreign interventionist countries, were made with the massive use of the machete as a sidearm. It can be said that agicultural implements were used in all the world to make wars, but as I stated, the machete was also specifically a weapon, and it took several military types which still survive. The traditional machete was not the actual laminated thin blade massively produced, but has a tapered blade aproximately 5mm thick at their beginning, and has the profile of a wedge. Examples survive on mexican museums.

The actual machete is the result of the industrialized and cheap version of it, designed by countries foreign to this tradition, in order to satisfy the needs of the markets of the less industrialized countries. Hardly an "ethnic" edged tool, or just as ethnic, as the bowies made for the United States on the Sheffield factories in England in the 19th Century, with which the machete shares the fact of being a tool and a weapon. Is as ethnic, as the malayan-indonesian edged weapons made by Valiant Co. And though many of this less indutrialized countries actually make the same cheap models, their direct origin is found in Collins, the Solingen factories and other manofacturers in Europe and the United States. Another thing is to study the traditional old machete.
My best regards

Gonzalo

ausjulius · 7th September 2008, 11:04 AM

indeed this is true.
as the older types of machete are all more weapon than tool like ,, it is only the middle of the 19th centuary when the agriculturial type seem to become more and more the common form

is there still any machete production being undertaken on any scale in mexico?? or any makers that are producing high quality machetes by hand?

also how common are the regional styles of machete still in mexico?
and what sort of regional knives are still used?

Gonzalo G · 7th September 2008, 11:55 AM

Strange, for being in Dagestan, you have much information on the machete, Ausjulius. I have the same interest on the weapons from your zone.

Yes, we have very characteristc machetes on the diverse areas. Each area has their special needs. On the contray of what is said in the formentioned article, the machete cañero is big and with a wider point, just to cut several sugar canes in one blow. In Guerrero state is used a diffrent humped machete, named "Acapulqueño", and also a slender, thin and flexible machete with a minimun hilt, that can be used around the waist. We have long and slender models to work on the southeast Mexico, and very short models on the north. In Oaxaca area are produced machetes in the traditional way, if they are ordered, with handguards, silver inlay, eagle pommels, tapered blade with etchings. The military machete has been assimilated partially to the charrería, the rural tradition associated with cattle raising in the center área of the country, from wich the trooper cavalryman was recruited, apart from the cowboys from the north Mexico, associated with the Coahuila-Texas tradition and also cattle raisers, though they used the lance and latter the carabine as a primary weapons. Most commonly, the charros uses crossguards on the machetes. Still today, many people carries on the saddle a big machete as a weapon and as a tool.
My best regards

Gonzalo

ausjulius · 7th September 2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Strange, for being in Dagestan, you have much information on the machete, Ausjulius. I have the same interest on the weapons from your zone.

Yes, we have very characteristc machetes on the diverse areas. Each area has their special needs. On the contray of what is said in the formentioned article, the machete cañero is big and with a wider point, just to cut several sugar canes in one blow. In Guerrero state is used a diffrent humped machete, named "Acapulqueño", and also a slender, thin and flexible machete with a minimun hilt, that can be used around the waist. We have long and slender models to work on the southeast Mexico, and very short models on the north. In Oaxaca area are produced machetes in the traditional way, if they are ordered, with handguards, silver inlay, eagle pommels, tapered blade with etchings. The military machete has been assimilated partially to the charrería, the rural tradition associated with cattle raising in the center área of the country, from wich the trooper cavalryman was recruited, apart from the cowboys from the north Mexico, associated with the Coahuila-Texas tradition and also cattle raisers, though they used the lance and latter the carabine as a primary weapons. Most commonly, the charros uses crossguards on the machetes. Still today, many people carries on the saddle a big machete as a weapon and as a tool.
My best regards

Gonzalo

hello gonzalo..
yes weaponry as kindjas and the shashka are rather interesting indeed..
although the thing that draws me to machetes is the surpurbe utility,, while many styles are still a most lethal weapon they are also a very handy tool , and a tool that most nearly all people in all climates will have some use for..
i actualy grew up in australia in the northern territory,, . where machetes are rather common in use.. ,, actualy i aquired my interest in the as i spent the first part of my childhood in new zealand,, and in the rural area billhooks, hacks and pole bills , slashers ect ect were still common, when it was ragwort or thistle season we use to go out an make combat against these with various edged tools..

from there my interest was born and later on in australia i used a machete on many occasions for work or camping or as a kid in the bush,, the climate in the north would proably be close to some southern parts of mexico,,
hot humid whet/dry climate. rocky with lots of grass, bush and thorny plants,,something like the southern brazil

have you any pictures of these regional styles that are still used,

regards, julius

Gonzalo G · 8th September 2008, 02:51 PM

I don´t, but I have three different machetes of very diverse kinds, one of them hand made, if you want to see it. But you have to wait a little to let me take the pictures.

Some old machetes have been confused as espadas anchas, as there is some confussion about the concept of espada ancha and the concept of the machete.

Regards
Gonzalo

ausjulius · 9th September 2008, 11:54 PM

yes i would be most interested to see any pictures you have , is there any information on the internet that may show the specific styles used in mexico,, and other south american countries?

Jim McDougall · 10th September 2008, 07:26 AM

Gonzalo, that dissertation on the machete is a beautifully written piece of work, and extremely well said! I'm saving that for my notes.
It is also fascinating to see individuals from two distant cultures with interests in each others weaponry , especially as I also have deep interests in the weapons of Mexico as well as the Caucusus.

I agree Gonzalo, that there has often been a great deal of confusion between machetes and the extremely intriguing espada ancha. I think there were differences in the espada ancha in those of Northern Mexico, being heavier bladed as the heavy vegetation of the Sonoran desert certainly warranted these for utility as well as a weapon. Although the term 'espada ancha' of course meant wide heavy bladed sword, the more ornate examples with the familiar 'dragoon' broadsword blades seem to have been more for wear on the rancheros, than by those soldados or vaqueros in the rugged terrain in Northern Mexico and New Spain.

If one is looking at an old Collins Co. catalog, it is incredibly surprising to see many of the old machetes, with blades remarkably like old Solingen blades and overall looking very shashka like!. Not a comparison, but an interesting note.

All best regards,
Jim

7th September 2008, 10:52 AM	#1
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I find many questionable statements in that article. From the concept of the machete, to the history of it´s development in America and it´s types. The machete, as we actually know it, is the result of an evolution which begins in Spain, and not with the whacking sticks of aboriginal americans. This evolution implies many diverse forms, geometries and measures, some of which are reflected on the actual machetes. The machete has been, historically, a tool and a weapon, even today, no matter the intentions of their actual manofacturers. We produce and use still today in Mexico, machetes with hanguards and elaboratedly hilts with eagle pommels decorated with silver, and blades with etched inscriptions tipical of the motos used on the military swords. And people use them as a weapon. Tough the machete have been progressively used more as a tool than as a weapon, since it´s origins and difussion throught the spanish army, and latter throught the spanish settlers, the machetes were used by the commoneers to make war or to work on the fields in agricultural and cattle raising activities. The spanish army, by Royal Order of october 5th, 1841, adopted the machete for all the infantry and provincial militias, since the saber "...in the present cirumstances and the actual state in the art of the war, it is a a bothersome and impeding weapon on the march and manoeuvres, useless on encampments and combats". (Free traslation form a quote made by José Luis Calvó, a distinguished researcher on this subject, on his article "Sables, Espadas y Machetes Distintivo de Clases de a Pié I", page 27). In other words, the machete was adopted as the sidearm of the infantry, artillery and engineer corps since then. This, conducted to the development of some colonial versions of the military machete on Cuba and the Phillipines, and influenced the versions of this weapon in Mexico, thought independent from Spain since 1821. The very war of independence of Mexico, and latter the civil wars and the wars made against foreign interventionist countries, were made with the massive use of the machete as a sidearm. It can be said that agicultural implements were used in all the world to make wars, but as I stated, the machete was also specifically a weapon, and it took several military types which still survive. The traditional machete was not the actual laminated thin blade massively produced, but has a tapered blade aproximately 5mm thick at their beginning, and has the profile of a wedge. Examples survive on mexican museums. The actual machete is the result of the industrialized and cheap version of it, designed by countries foreign to this tradition, in order to satisfy the needs of the markets of the less industrialized countries. Hardly an "ethnic" edged tool, or just as ethnic, as the bowies made for the United States on the Sheffield factories in England in the 19th Century, with which the machete shares the fact of being a tool and a weapon. Is as ethnic, as the malayan-indonesian edged weapons made by Valiant Co. And though many of this less indutrialized countries actually make the same cheap models, their direct origin is found in Collins, the Solingen factories and other manofacturers in Europe and the United States. Another thing is to study the traditional old machete. My best regards Gonzalo

7th September 2008, 11:04 AM	#2
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 477	indeed this is true. as the older types of machete are all more weapon than tool like ,, it is only the middle of the 19th centuary when the agriculturial type seem to become more and more the common form is there still any machete production being undertaken on any scale in mexico?? or any makers that are producing high quality machetes by hand? also how common are the regional styles of machete still in mexico? and what sort of regional knives are still used?

7th September 2008, 11:55 AM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Strange, for being in Dagestan, you have much information on the machete, Ausjulius. I have the same interest on the weapons from your zone. Yes, we have very characteristc machetes on the diverse areas. Each area has their special needs. On the contray of what is said in the formentioned article, the machete cañero is big and with a wider point, just to cut several sugar canes in one blow. In Guerrero state is used a diffrent humped machete, named "Acapulqueño", and also a slender, thin and flexible machete with a minimun hilt, that can be used around the waist. We have long and slender models to work on the southeast Mexico, and very short models on the north. In Oaxaca area are produced machetes in the traditional way, if they are ordered, with handguards, silver inlay, eagle pommels, tapered blade with etchings. The military machete has been assimilated partially to the charrería, the rural tradition associated with cattle raising in the center área of the country, from wich the trooper cavalryman was recruited, apart from the cowboys from the north Mexico, associated with the Coahuila-Texas tradition and also cattle raisers, though they used the lance and latter the carabine as a primary weapons. Most commonly, the charros uses crossguards on the machetes. Still today, many people carries on the saddle a big machete as a weapon and as a tool. My best regards Gonzalo

8th September 2008, 02:51 PM	#5
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I don´t, but I have three different machetes of very diverse kinds, one of them hand made, if you want to see it. But you have to wait a little to let me take the pictures. Some old machetes have been confused as espadas anchas, as there is some confussion about the concept of espada ancha and the concept of the machete. Regards Gonzalo

9th September 2008, 11:54 PM	#6
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 477	yes i would be most interested to see any pictures you have , is there any information on the internet that may show the specific styles used in mexico,, and other south american countries?

10th September 2008, 07:26 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,672	Gonzalo, that dissertation on the machete is a beautifully written piece of work, and extremely well said! I'm saving that for my notes. It is also fascinating to see individuals from two distant cultures with interests in each others weaponry , especially as I also have deep interests in the weapons of Mexico as well as the Caucusus. I agree Gonzalo, that there has often been a great deal of confusion between machetes and the extremely intriguing espada ancha. I think there were differences in the espada ancha in those of Northern Mexico, being heavier bladed as the heavy vegetation of the Sonoran desert certainly warranted these for utility as well as a weapon. Although the term 'espada ancha' of course meant wide heavy bladed sword, the more ornate examples with the familiar 'dragoon' broadsword blades seem to have been more for wear on the rancheros, than by those soldados or vaqueros in the rugged terrain in Northern Mexico and New Spain. If one is looking at an old Collins Co. catalog, it is incredibly surprising to see many of the old machetes, with blades remarkably like old Solingen blades and overall looking very shashka like!. Not a comparison, but an interesting note. All best regards, Jim