Talismanic or just randomly placed copper dots

kai · 6th September 2008, 12:54 AM

Hello Ron,

Quote:

... or perhaps just a certain blacksmith's method of strengthening the tang?

How would such a construction be stronger than a regular tang?

I've also heard the suggestion that this may have been done with blades where not enough material was left for forming a tang during the original forging. I don't think so: obviously the skill of the bladesmiths was high. Even if your pieces for the sandwich construction were not large enough for a tang, the easiest and stronger solution would still be to take an additional suitable piece of mild steel and weld it between the layers during the sandwich step...

Regards,
Kai

Spunjer · 6th September 2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Ron,

How would such a construction be stronger than a regular tang?

my bad. after reading my post, it didn't convey what i wanted to say. i really need to start using the Preview Post Button.
what i meant was it coulda been a certain style of kris, that is why i brought up the relative similarity on the decoration found on my kris's handle and kino's asang-asang . as far as how such construction is stronger, i have no clue. heck, i would think a one piece blade rather than separate blade/gangya would be stronger, but evidently the moros of old have something else in mind.
also, if this is a method of repairing a broken tang, then why don't we see some type of tang repair of this kind(don't have to be similar) on a barung or kampilan ?

kai · 7th September 2008, 01:30 AM

Hello Ron,

Quote:

what i meant was it coulda been a certain style of kris, that is why i brought up the relative similarity on the decoration found on my kris's handle and kino's asang-asang

I think I remember this repair from a lot of different kris: Sulu, Maguindanao, and Marano; very old (don't remember any archaic pieces though) up to at least 19th c.; small and large kris; etc.

Quote:

if this is a method of repairing a broken tang, then why don't we see some type of tang repair of this kind(don't have to be similar) on a barung or kampilan ?

IMHO this type of repair only works if you have a separate gangya (or a similar strong piece of metal) to hold the tang - a regular ferrule won't be strong enough. I believe this is the reason why this repair/feature is only seen with kris.

Regards,
Kai

Spunjer · 7th September 2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Ron,

I think I remember this repair from a lot of different kris: Sulu, Maguindanao, and Marano; very old (don't remember any archaic pieces though) up to at least 19th c.; small and large kris; etc.

IMHO this type of repair only works if you have a separate gangya (or a similar strong piece of metal) to hold the tang - a regular ferrule won't be strong enough. I believe this is the reason why this repair/feature is only seen with kris.

Regards,
Kai

hi kai,
i've seen this on a sulu blade as well that's why i'm thinking it's more of a style rather than regional.

kino · 1st March 2009, 09:41 PM

I recently picked up this working mans kris. The blade is inscribed, among other things with the two curving lines that forms an oval in the middle and Sisinga Sulaiman. It is barely visible, probably due to numerous sharpenings.

Clearly you could see the repair work to the tang. Within the repair area are silver inlays, four of them, two on each side of the blade looks like 3 lines joined at at the bottom pointing towards the tip of the blade. Could these be the tines of a trident. There are remnants of the silver inlays surrounding the cut-out of the blade. I believe the silver inlays were placed after the repair work.

Comments??

Bill · 6th March 2009, 12:10 PM

Just too many of these to be repairs.
Most logical assumption would be the "Jen" failed the last warrior & needed replacement.
According to Cato's definition of Jen: "...a supernatural entity which resides within a sword. It's major functions are to protect the owner and assist him in combat."

The engravings on this last sword (suggest to me) power from the user transfered to the "Jen" & then to the rest of the sword.
The similar markings on the center guard going into the repaired section & the outer guard may be going in opposite directions. The users power going/combining into the Jen & the rest of the sword & the power of the Jen & sword coming back (outer guard) to protect the user.

I recall a story from a captured Spanish Clergy that was forced to assist a smith. He complained of all the rituals involved & waiting for correct signs before proceeding to the next steps in the process.
If all this was done to ensure a powerful "Jen" & the last owner was killed in combat, certainly no one would want or believe in the sword.

Many of the old beliefs & psyche of the old Moro warrior may be lost. My guess is this may be the results of economics. In bad times or when a sword is needed quickly, the tang/Jen replacement would have to suffice. Add in a holy man inscribing the right talismans & the new owner may have felt quite confident in his new Jen.

VANDOO · 6th March 2009, 04:33 PM

IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO X RAY A FEW EXAMPLES OF THIS TO SEE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE INTERNALLY TO SEE HOW IT WAS DONE AND TO SEE IF THERE ARE HIDDEN MARKEINGS OR TAILSMEN INSIDE THE SUSPECTED REPAIR.
CONJECTURE PERHAPS THESE SWORDS AND ONES WITH SYMBOLS ENGRAVED IN THE BLADE DENOTED, SOMEONE WITH SECRET POWERS SUCH AS A SHAMAN OR WITCH DOCTOR (IF MORO HAD SUCH)

IN WARRIOR SOCIETYS YOUR REPUTATION AS A WARRIOR DEPENDED ON PAST VICTORIES AND A PERSON OR SWORD REPUTED TO HAVE STRONG MAGIC COULD GIVE AN EDGE AND CAUSE OTHERS TO FEAR YOU MORE.

1st March 2009, 09:41 PM	#5
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,018	Talismanic repairs?? I recently picked up this working mans kris. The blade is inscribed, among other things with the two curving lines that forms an oval in the middle and Sisinga Sulaiman. It is barely visible, probably due to numerous sharpenings. Clearly you could see the repair work to the tang. Within the repair area are silver inlays, four of them, two on each side of the blade looks like 3 lines joined at at the bottom pointing towards the tip of the blade. Could these be the tines of a trident. There are remnants of the silver inlays surrounding the cut-out of the blade. I believe the silver inlays were placed after the repair work. Comments?? Attached Images

6th March 2009, 12:10 PM	#6
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Just too many of these to be repairs. Most logical assumption would be the "Jen" failed the last warrior & needed replacement. According to Cato's definition of Jen: "...a supernatural entity which resides within a sword. It's major functions are to protect the owner and assist him in combat." The engravings on this last sword (suggest to me) power from the user transfered to the "Jen" & then to the rest of the sword. The similar markings on the center guard going into the repaired section & the outer guard may be going in opposite directions. The users power going/combining into the Jen & the rest of the sword & the power of the Jen & sword coming back (outer guard) to protect the user. I recall a story from a captured Spanish Clergy that was forced to assist a smith. He complained of all the rituals involved & waiting for correct signs before proceeding to the next steps in the process. If all this was done to ensure a powerful "Jen" & the last owner was killed in combat, certainly no one would want or believe in the sword. Many of the old beliefs & psyche of the old Moro warrior may be lost. My guess is this may be the results of economics. In bad times or when a sword is needed quickly, the tang/Jen replacement would have to suffice. Add in a holy man inscribing the right talismans & the new owner may have felt quite confident in his new Jen.

6th March 2009, 04:33 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO X RAY A FEW EXAMPLES OF THIS TO SEE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE INTERNALLY TO SEE HOW IT WAS DONE AND TO SEE IF THERE ARE HIDDEN MARKEINGS OR TAILSMEN INSIDE THE SUSPECTED REPAIR. CONJECTURE PERHAPS THESE SWORDS AND ONES WITH SYMBOLS ENGRAVED IN THE BLADE DENOTED, SOMEONE WITH SECRET POWERS SUCH AS A SHAMAN OR WITCH DOCTOR (IF MORO HAD SUCH) IN WARRIOR SOCIETYS YOUR REPUTATION AS A WARRIOR DEPENDED ON PAST VICTORIES AND A PERSON OR SWORD REPUTED TO HAVE STRONG MAGIC COULD GIVE AN EDGE AND CAUSE OTHERS TO FEAR YOU MORE.