Talismanic or just randomly placed copper dots

VVV · 2nd September 2008, 09:53 AM

Interesting piece, congratulations!
I also agree that they must have some meaning, even if we probably never really will know what.
Here are two suggestions that maybe(!) could be the case:

- Magic; to counter an enemy who has powers not to be hurt by steel by adding another metal in the blade.
- Symbolic leverage; by including 4 higher powers in the blade they will assist the owner in the fight. I don't know which 4 powers but the
most common ones are: the 4 archangels, the 4 rulers of the corners of the earth, the 4 elements, the 4 friends of the Prophet etc.

Just ideas, but based on ethnographic information collected in the same cultural area.

Michael

Atlantia · 2nd September 2008, 02:00 PM

Lovely sword by the way Kino,
Are there definately only the four dots? No others further down the blade?

kino · 3rd September 2008, 02:10 AM

A lot of good theories. Thanks.

Atlantia, No not Buddhist, the Moro's are Muslims. There are only four copper dots on each side of the blade.

Battara- Upon closer inspection the clamp seems to be made of copper that was covered in silver. I have seen suassa over silver, this is my first encounter with silver over copper.

Kai- No hairline crack inline with the dots. Although there is evidence of a repair to the tang.

VVV- I can't invalidate your theory, anything is possible.

Does the dots have anything to do with the tang repair? Cato said that the Jin is released if the blade is separated from the ganya. I wonder if the dots were placed on the blade prior to doing the repair, to prevent the Jin from escaping.
Which came first the tang repair or the copper dots???

Battara · 3rd September 2008, 02:42 PM

Good point Kino. Did not see the repair. Also, I see the dots closer now and they are in the form of an okir moon according to Saber and Orellana (circles symbolize the moon). Perhaps the power of 4 moons rising?

Maguindanao and Maranao piece often have a base metal covered by a top layer of a precious metal. I would say Maguindanao in this case. Rare to have this on a baka-baka and it being filigree at that.

Bill · 3rd September 2008, 08:07 PM

Very cool sword. How many dots total, can you point them all out? I'll throw in my 2 cents of speculation.
The fellow that owned this was very superstitious, so some of the meaning may specific, as to him as an individual. Perhaps he was of some religious status.
Seeing as the first dot is on the gangya & is as close as you can get to holding the sword, he may have felt he was sending his inner power down into the blade. The first 4 dots certainly look as a continuation of his arm right to the center of the blade.
That "repair" is interesting too. I have a blade that was clearly damaged & the tang was replaced. But I have also seen a high % of talismanic blades with what appears to be tang replacements.
Could this blade be made this way deliberately? Some of the work looks like it was sawed/filed in a straight line/box; while some (like yours) are rather uneven (made in the forging process?). The tang being made of some metal of spiritual value (old sword, etc) & being added to the new sword; an old Jin, you might say?

Tim Simmons · 3rd September 2008, 08:16 PM

Again we see this so called hilt repair. I am not out to start a fight but lets look at this. We see this sort of thing so often. The blades are not damaged. What sort of blow would break such renouned weapons at the hilt? leaving the blade in normal condition. I have to ask again are these swords really that crap or is this some local form of construction? To me it is just getting a little silly seeing this again and again with the same repair idea. We do not see this with other weapon world wide?

kai · 3rd September 2008, 11:28 PM

Hello Tim,

Thanks for thinking outside the box! I have no stake in this discussion but for the fun of it let me play the devil's advocate...

Quote:

Again we see this so called hilt repair. I am not out to start a fight but lets look at this. We see this sort of thing so often. The blades are not damaged. What sort of blow would break such renouned weapons at the hilt? leaving the blade in normal condition. I have to ask again are these swords really that crap or is this some local form of construction? To me it is just getting a little silly seeing this again and again with the same repair idea. We do not see this with other weapon world wide?

Well, this type of repair/whatever is only possible as long as you have a separate gangya - if one needs to fix a different blade/tang construction, a different technique would be called for (if any). The smaller Indonesian/Malay keris isn't subjected to the same mechanical stress during fighting and several genuine tang repair methods are traditionally employed for these blades (Alan discussed options in a thread at the Keris Warung Kopi). This leaves the Moro kris (and Malay keris sundang) as the only blade for which this method would be sensible. Doesn't prove either explanation but explains why you don't see it with other swords, I guess.

While we've seen quite a few kris posted with such a repair/feature, this is still a minority (just guessing: less than 5% of surviving pre-20th century kris). Lateral stress does happen and isn't good for any sword. A bend sword can still be used and straightened out later; only a survivor will be able to comission a tang repair though. Of course, blades with fatal damages (major cracks, etc.) won't usually end up getting repaired.

Often the repair/feature has been done with great skill - sometimes so good that people whose knowledge I respect a lot tend to think that it must be an original feature rather than a repair. However, there are sure examples of great repair jobs on blades from several cultures which attest to the skill of experienced bladesmiths of old. For example, Bill has a Jian where pitting has been meticulously repaired by tiny rectangular (mild?) steel inlays and the antique repair job was more expensive than the fine blade! Obviously, other factors contribute to owners' decisions for having a blade repaired.

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 3rd September 2008, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Very cool sword. How many dots total, can you point them all out? I'll throw in my 2 cents of speculation.
The fellow that owned this was very superstitious, so some of the meaning may specific, as to him as an individual. Perhaps he was of some religious status.
Seeing as the first dot is on the gangya & is as close as you can get to holding the sword, he may have felt he was sending his inner power down into the blade. The first 4 dots certainly look as a continuation of his arm right to the center of the blade.
That "repair" is interesting too. I have a blade that was clearly damaged & the tang was replaced. But I have also seen a high % of talismanic blades with what appears to be tang replacements.
Could this blade be made this way deliberately? Some of the work looks like it was sawed/filed in a straight line/box; while some (like yours) are rather uneven (made in the forging process?). The tang being made of some metal of spiritual value (old sword, etc) & being added to the new sword; an old Jin, you might say?

Bill has an interesting point ; incorporating pieces of known powerful kerises into a new keris is not unknown in Jawa .
Perhaps this was so with the Moro peoples ..

People have said that the power of a keris resides in the tang, or pesi; so you might use the pesi of the powerful kris to enhance the power of the new sword .

Also, if this is the case why not just use the powerful metal in the forging process rather than go through the difficult process of adding it later resulting in weakening the overall structure of the sword ?

Having said that; I still think that these could also be legitimate repairs to weapons destroyed by government patrols . What would it take to bust off the tang ?
Hammer and a cold chisel .
You can't use a sword without a handle and you can't carry off all the confiscated stuff on patrol .

Bill, I hope I didn't foul up your post.

I hit edit instead of quote .

Tim Simmons · 3rd September 2008, 08:50 PM

Breaking rebel or other named fighters weapons like this would seem unique to the PI. I cannot say I have seen such actions by British empire captured insurgents weapons. Barongs do not seem to be damaged? or other sword like weapons.

VVV · 3rd September 2008, 08:55 PM

Interesting theory about adding old metal in the new kris.
I forgot before to mention that the motifs below the copper dots - the cross, the eight-petalled rosette and the double-cross - are all traditional "Folk Islam"- talismanic symbols (based on the number 5 [including the center]) to divert the effect of an opponent's evil eye. The principle is, similar to the old idea about cross-roads, to "disperse the evil energy issuing from the eye to all the quarters of the wind in order to prevent it from injuring the person or object looked at." [Westermarck, Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation].

Michael

kai · 3rd September 2008, 11:55 PM

Hello Rick,

Quote:

People have said that the power of a keris resides in the tang, or pesi; so you might use the pesi of the powerful kris to enhance the power of the new sword .

The only info on Moro kris regarding this topic (by Cato) suggests that the base area (especially the "arrow" motif if fullers are present) is the "home" of the jin. If I remember correctly, Alan related that the pesi of keris Jawa isn't usually regarded as having special power either.

Quote:

Also, if this is the case why not just use the powerful metal in the forging process rather than go through the difficult process of adding it later resulting in weakening the overall structure of the sword ?

Yes, recycling the metal seems to have been traditionally used in Indonesia and would certainly make sense from a structural point of view...

Quote:

Having said that; I still think that these could also be legitimate repairs to weapons destroyed by government patrols .

I wouldn't emphasize the colonial war by the US too much since I guess that many repairs were already done well before the US involvement: Many repairs are of a quality which I'd estimate to have vanished before the 20th century, possibly already during the Span.-Am. war.

Regards,
Kai

VVV · 7th September 2008, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

....But I have also seen a high % of talismanic blades with what appears to be tang replacements.
Could this blade be made this way deliberately? Some of the work looks like it was sawed/filed in a straight line/box; while some (like yours) are rather uneven (made in the forging process?). The tang being made of some metal of spiritual value (old sword, etc) & being added to the new sword; an old Jin, you might say?

I think Bill had the right idea already in this early post with adding metal of spiritual value (combined with all the other talismanic features).
But it doesn't need to be from another kris. It wasn't that unusual for instance to do a Haj to Mecca. If somebody had brought with them pieces of metal from Kabah I assume that the proper place to put it, as a talisman or amulet, was just below the ganya.
It could also be from some other, spiritually charged metal, maybe from somebody with saint-status (wali) ? Similar to the Malay concept of keramat or the Indonesian sakti? The charged metal could also have been from the same source and later ceremonially been divided among the panglimas or datus within the same sultanate?
In more Northern part of the Philippines I know of such ceremonies among brothers in arms taking place even today.

Michael

Tim Simmons · 7th September 2008, 09:37 AM

That sounds good to me and you say this pratice happens today.

If the tang was made from a seperate piece or to represent a special piece of spiritual metal, that needed to be seen rather than mixed in the forging of the blade. It may well explain why I can see the kris being originally made in three parts. The matching of the two parts of the blade may still be a reason for a seperate tang but I do like the special metal idea. A neat solution to incorporate and show this concept.

kai · 4th September 2008, 01:30 AM

Hello Albert,

Quote:

Kai- No hairline crack inline with the dots.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting it in this case - just mentioning possibilities in general.

Quote:

Does the dots have anything to do with the tang repair? Cato said that the Jin is released if the blade is separated from the ganya. I wonder if the dots were placed on the blade prior to doing the repair, to prevent the Jin from escaping.

With one of the dots on the gangya, I don't see how this might have been supposed to work. A master bladesmith should be able to (re-)apply a Jin when finishing the repair work; I'd guess that there were rituals to house the Jin elsewhere while working on a blade, too.

Quote:

Which came first the tang repair or the copper dots???

We'll probably never know. However, I'd guess the dots were part of the original talismanic design.

Regards,
Kai

3rd September 2008, 02:10 AM	#3
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,020	A lot of good theories. Thanks. Atlantia, No not Buddhist, the Moro's are Muslims. There are only four copper dots on each side of the blade. Battara- Upon closer inspection the clamp seems to be made of copper that was covered in silver. I have seen suassa over silver, this is my first encounter with silver over copper. Kai- No hairline crack inline with the dots. Although there is evidence of a repair to the tang. VVV- I can't invalidate your theory, anything is possible. Does the dots have anything to do with the tang repair? Cato said that the Jin is released if the blade is separated from the ganya. I wonder if the dots were placed on the blade prior to doing the repair, to prevent the Jin from escaping. Which came first the tang repair or the copper dots??? Attached Images

3rd September 2008, 08:07 PM	#5
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Very cool sword. How many dots total, can you point them all out? I'll throw in my 2 cents of speculation. The fellow that owned this was very superstitious, so some of the meaning may specific, as to him as an individual. Perhaps he was of some religious status. Seeing as the first dot is on the gangya & is as close as you can get to holding the sword, he may have felt he was sending his inner power down into the blade. The first 4 dots certainly look as a continuation of his arm right to the center of the blade. That "repair" is interesting too. I have a blade that was clearly damaged & the tang was replaced. But I have also seen a high % of talismanic blades with what appears to be tang replacements. Could this blade be made this way deliberately? Some of the work looks like it was sawed/filed in a straight line/box; while some (like yours) are rather uneven (made in the forging process?). The tang being made of some metal of spiritual value (old sword, etc) & being added to the new sword; an old Jin, you might say? Last edited by Rick; 3rd September 2008 at 08:26 PM.

3rd September 2008, 08:55 PM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Interesting theory about adding old metal in the new kris. I forgot before to mention that the motifs below the copper dots - the cross, the eight-petalled rosette and the double-cross - are all traditional "Folk Islam"- talismanic symbols (based on the number 5 [including the center]) to divert the effect of an opponent's evil eye. The principle is, similar to the old idea about cross-roads, to "disperse the evil energy issuing from the eye to all the quarters of the wind in order to prevent it from injuring the person or object looked at." [Westermarck, Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation]. Michael Last edited by VVV; 3rd September 2008 at 09:07 PM.

2nd September 2008, 09:53 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Interesting piece, congratulations! I also agree that they must have some meaning, even if we probably never really will know what. Here are two suggestions that maybe(!) could be the case: - Magic; to counter an enemy who has powers not to be hurt by steel by adding another metal in the blade. - Symbolic leverage; by including 4 higher powers in the blade they will assist the owner in the fight. I don't know which 4 powers but the most common ones are: the 4 archangels, the 4 rulers of the corners of the earth, the 4 elements, the 4 friends of the Prophet etc. Just ideas, but based on ethnographic information collected in the same cultural area. Michael

2nd September 2008, 02:00 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Lovely sword by the way Kino, Are there definately only the four dots? No others further down the blade?

3rd September 2008, 02:42 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	Good point Kino. Did not see the repair. Also, I see the dots closer now and they are in the form of an okir moon according to Saber and Orellana (circles symbolize the moon). Perhaps the power of 4 moons rising? Maguindanao and Maranao piece often have a base metal covered by a top layer of a precious metal. I would say Maguindanao in this case. Rare to have this on a baka-baka and it being filigree at that.

3rd September 2008, 08:16 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Again we see this so called hilt repair. I am not out to start a fight but lets look at this. We see this sort of thing so often. The blades are not damaged. What sort of blow would break such renouned weapons at the hilt? leaving the blade in normal condition. I have to ask again are these swords really that crap or is this some local form of construction? To me it is just getting a little silly seeing this again and again with the same repair idea. We do not see this with other weapon world wide?

3rd September 2008, 08:50 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Breaking rebel or other named fighters weapons like this would seem unique to the PI. I cannot say I have seen such actions by British empire captured insurgents weapons. Barongs do not seem to be damaged? or other sword like weapons.

7th September 2008, 09:37 AM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	That sounds good to me and you say this pratice happens today. If the tang was made from a seperate piece or to represent a special piece of spiritual metal, that needed to be seen rather than mixed in the forging of the blade. It may well explain why I can see the kris being originally made in three parts. The matching of the two parts of the blade may still be a reason for a seperate tang but I do like the special metal idea. A neat solution to incorporate and show this concept.