New keris?

Rick · 30th August 2008, 07:44 PM

That looks like a keris pedang or Ligan .

Marcokeris · 30th August 2008, 08:26 PM

Mr. Ganjawulung gave me this gift (sarong and pendok) some time ago. At that time the gajaman was not till completely finish (there was not the final polishing). Slowly slowly i have finish the work and then i have find a blade....but i don't remember what kind of wood is this and what is the name!
Dear Ganja please can help me to know the name?

Marcokeris · 30th August 2008, 08:30 PM

Sorry I wanted to do a new thread but i have do a mistake

A. G. Maisey · 31st August 2008, 12:34 AM

I dislike intensely getting involved in dhapur discussion, because there is this tendency to apply Javanese dhapur names to keris forms from various other places, where the same name often will not apply, and also because even within Jawa itself opinions on the salient features of particular dhapurs can vary greatly.

However, this keris is an interesting form, and I will throw a comment into the ring.

The pawakan of this blade is certainly very like unto a cundrik or cengkrong, but it appears to have a rolled edge, or back-pipe as the continuation of the wadidang, so I don't think we can apply these names.

I think it might be able to be called a ligan, as Rick suggests.

Yes, there is no uwer fitted, however, in my experience, uwer are very seldom in evidence in the vast majority of Balinese keris, especially older ones.

Henk · 31st August 2008, 08:07 AM

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]there is this tendency to apply Javanese dhapur names to keris forms from various other placesQUOTE]

Alan, you are completely right. I noticed among fellow collectors here in Holland that we use the Javanese names for the dhapur and other parts on keris not from Java, because we all know what we mean. In that case we speak the same language.
Using Javanese names is because we simply haven't the knowledge to use the names belonging to the parts of keris originated outside Java.

Maybe a list of names for Balinese, Madura and Sumatran keris parts could be useful. This part of kerisknowledge is disapearing.

A. G. Maisey · 31st August 2008, 09:12 AM

I think maybe it has already disappeared Henk.

It probably doesn't matter a great deal if collectors in Holland or collectors in US, or collectors in Australia use Javanese names to describe a dhapur or pamor, or ricikan---as you say the person you're talking to knows what you mean. For that matter you could use Dutch, or English or any other language, they'd all serve the same purpose of conveying an idea from one person to another.

However, the whole problem with this name game of dhapur and pamor is that there is only one name that is correct, and that is only correct according to the pakem that defines it, and within the cultural framework that produced the pakem. Move 40 miles down the road and the rules change.

To be honest, I gave up on dhapur and pamor names maybe 30 years ago. As soon as I realised that people in different keris study groups and different cultural alignments in Jawa itself cannot agree over a lot of the supposedly "correct" names, I asked myself why I, a bule with no affiliation with any keris study group, or any Javanese cultural group, should bother to be too pedantic about which is the supposedly "correct" name, and which is not. Yes, I tend towards the parameters set by Surakarta, but that it a tendency, it is not iron-bound.

Yes, many of the common forms and motifs will have the same name in various places, but I once listened to a debate between two ---or maybe three--- very respected ahli keris as to what the correct ricikan for a particular dhapur--- I think it was Anoman--- were. It went on interminably, it amounted to no more than opinion, and it left one of these gentlemen fuming and frothing at the mouth.There was no resolution.All concerned went away believing he was correct and the others were uneducated fools.

I don't think we can use Javanese names for many, if not most keris from places outside Jawa, because even though a Balinese keris might be close to a particular Javanese dhapur, it will probably vary in some minor detail, and in any case, the pawakan is wrong before you go anywhere. Then you need to ask yourself which Javanese pakem you're using.

In my opinion it is better to describe any but the most simple keris forms in terms of their characteristics, rather than by trying to affix a dhapur name that even in Jawa itself, as applied to a Javanese blade, many people will have differing opinions on.

Henk · 31st August 2008, 09:58 AM

I already thought so that this knowledge was gone for the greatest part, Alan. Still you speak about uwer and not about mendak. May i assume that uwer is balinese for mendak, or is an uwer a complete different object compared to the mendak?

About trying to give names to the parts of a keris or weapon. I completely agree with you. As a matter of fact I do remember I posted a chopper. In that discussion the object got about three different names. In this village it was called that, and in that village it was called that. And is it worth quarreling about the name of an object? Only when a sword is called a spear the mistake is definitely clear.

In an old Dutch book about keris you can find a few dhapur names, but the author says the same you said. Describe the keris in terms of their characteristics. I think we might better stick to that, although we humans wish to categorize things.

30th August 2008, 08:26 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	A gayaman with unusual wood Mr. Ganjawulung gave me this gift (sarong and pendok) some time ago. At that time the gajaman was not till completely finish (there was not the final polishing). Slowly slowly i have finish the work and then i have find a blade....but i don't remember what kind of wood is this and what is the name! Dear Ganja please can help me to know the name? Attached Images Last edited by Marcokeris; 30th August 2008 at 08:28 PM. Reason: a new tread sorry!!

30th August 2008, 07:44 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	That looks like a keris pedang or Ligan .

30th August 2008, 08:30 PM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Sorry I wanted to do a new thread but i have do a mistake

31st August 2008, 12:34 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	I dislike intensely getting involved in dhapur discussion, because there is this tendency to apply Javanese dhapur names to keris forms from various other places, where the same name often will not apply, and also because even within Jawa itself opinions on the salient features of particular dhapurs can vary greatly. However, this keris is an interesting form, and I will throw a comment into the ring. The pawakan of this blade is certainly very like unto a cundrik or cengkrong, but it appears to have a rolled edge, or back-pipe as the continuation of the wadidang, so I don't think we can apply these names. I think it might be able to be called a ligan, as Rick suggests. Yes, there is no uwer fitted, however, in my experience, uwer are very seldom in evidence in the vast majority of Balinese keris, especially older ones.

31st August 2008, 08:07 AM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]there is this tendency to apply Javanese dhapur names to keris forms from various other placesQUOTE] Alan, you are completely right. I noticed among fellow collectors here in Holland that we use the Javanese names for the dhapur and other parts on keris not from Java, because we all know what we mean. In that case we speak the same language. Using Javanese names is because we simply haven't the knowledge to use the names belonging to the parts of keris originated outside Java. Maybe a list of names for Balinese, Madura and Sumatran keris parts could be useful. This part of kerisknowledge is disapearing.

31st August 2008, 09:12 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	I think maybe it has already disappeared Henk. It probably doesn't matter a great deal if collectors in Holland or collectors in US, or collectors in Australia use Javanese names to describe a dhapur or pamor, or ricikan---as you say the person you're talking to knows what you mean. For that matter you could use Dutch, or English or any other language, they'd all serve the same purpose of conveying an idea from one person to another. However, the whole problem with this name game of dhapur and pamor is that there is only one name that is correct, and that is only correct according to the pakem that defines it, and within the cultural framework that produced the pakem. Move 40 miles down the road and the rules change. To be honest, I gave up on dhapur and pamor names maybe 30 years ago. As soon as I realised that people in different keris study groups and different cultural alignments in Jawa itself cannot agree over a lot of the supposedly "correct" names, I asked myself why I, a bule with no affiliation with any keris study group, or any Javanese cultural group, should bother to be too pedantic about which is the supposedly "correct" name, and which is not. Yes, I tend towards the parameters set by Surakarta, but that it a tendency, it is not iron-bound. Yes, many of the common forms and motifs will have the same name in various places, but I once listened to a debate between two ---or maybe three--- very respected ahli keris as to what the correct ricikan for a particular dhapur--- I think it was Anoman--- were. It went on interminably, it amounted to no more than opinion, and it left one of these gentlemen fuming and frothing at the mouth.There was no resolution.All concerned went away believing he was correct and the others were uneducated fools. I don't think we can use Javanese names for many, if not most keris from places outside Jawa, because even though a Balinese keris might be close to a particular Javanese dhapur, it will probably vary in some minor detail, and in any case, the pawakan is wrong before you go anywhere. Then you need to ask yourself which Javanese pakem you're using. In my opinion it is better to describe any but the most simple keris forms in terms of their characteristics, rather than by trying to affix a dhapur name that even in Jawa itself, as applied to a Javanese blade, many people will have differing opinions on.

31st August 2008, 09:58 AM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I already thought so that this knowledge was gone for the greatest part, Alan. Still you speak about uwer and not about mendak. May i assume that uwer is balinese for mendak, or is an uwer a complete different object compared to the mendak? About trying to give names to the parts of a keris or weapon. I completely agree with you. As a matter of fact I do remember I posted a chopper. In that discussion the object got about three different names. In this village it was called that, and in that village it was called that. And is it worth quarreling about the name of an object? Only when a sword is called a spear the mistake is definitely clear. In an old Dutch book about keris you can find a few dhapur names, but the author says the same you said. Describe the keris in terms of their characteristics. I think we might better stick to that, although we humans wish to categorize things.