Sumatran Jawa Demam - Anak Ayam Sejuk - Birdman/Garuda?

David · 28th August 2008, 10:00 PM

It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade.
Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called?

VVV · 28th August 2008, 10:56 PM

Look forward to your pictures, Marco.
I noticed that Karsten has published a hilt that is a bit resembling, but it doesn't lean as much which was my major point, in Chapter 9,2:15 on his Krisdisk. He estimates his to 17/18th C.

David, it's of course not a mendak but we all know what we mean...
Here is the blade.

Michael

David · 29th August 2008, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

David, it's of course not a mendak but we all know what we mean...
Here is the blade.

Well yes, we do all know what you mean. Still, there is a habit within the keris community to just use Javanese terms regardless of the origin of the keris which i think in the end is not the best idea. Often just an English word will suffice (ie. sheath for wrongko or sarong), but some part require more specific terms. I ask this question in the hopes of expanding our knowledge base. We all know what you mean using mendak here, but i must assume that there is a proper name for this part and i suspect that someone out there knows it. Just because we understand each other doesn't mean we should not strive for correctness.

That being said ....what a beautiful keris you have on the other side of that "mendak"!

Marcokeris · 31st August 2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade.
Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called?

Sorry mr. David but mr. K.Jensen in the actual Krisdisk calls mendak many sumatran (and Sulawesi) rings with the same motif.

VVV · 31st August 2008, 10:35 PM

That's because Karsten decided to use Javanese terminology all over, instead of local, to make it less confusing. In this case he would probably call it a selut but as I understood what you meant I didn't care. A lot of the terms we use here are "collector terms" anyway and probably the original owners would have been puzzled when we discuss their weapons with all those strange terms from different books. Maybe there are 10 different names for a selut, or mendak, all over Sumatra?

Michael

David · 31st August 2008, 11:29 PM

[QUOTE=VVV A lot of the terms we use here are "collector terms" anyway and probably the original owners would have been puzzled when we discuss their weapons with all those strange terms from different books. Maybe there are 10 different names for a selut, or mendak, all over Sumatra? [/QUOTE]
But aren't you interested in knowing a couple of those names? Wouldn't it be nice to know the terms that the original owner might have used rather than some "collector term"?

Hey, i'm just asking here. For some reason though i get the feeling that everyone would rather continue with misused terminology rather that search to see if more accurate words still exist in Sumatran memory. So much of keris culture has slipped away over the years i would think that groups like ours would be interested in rediscovering and preseving some of this lost information instead of following in the mistakes of previous writers.

Alam Shah · 1st September 2008, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

But aren't you interested in knowing a couple of those names? Wouldn't it be nice to know the terms that the original owner might have used rather than some "collector term"?

It would be nice but one have lot of research... . Not only on that region but also the period. To me, good to know but not essential.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hey, i'm just asking here. For some reason though i get the feeling that everyone would rather continue with misused terminology rather that search to see if more accurate words still exist in Sumatran memory. So much of keris culture has slipped away over the years i would think that groups like ours would be interested in rediscovering and preseving some of this lost information instead of following in the mistakes of previous writers.

Personally, as long as the message gets accross... it have served its intended purpose.

Sumatra is a large place, with varying tribes with different dialects, a term might differ from one tribe to another. Researching this is a different ball game altogether, unless you're doing a PhD or something and willing to do field research, it would be an uphill task, even if one is willing to do groundwork... yet still, no guarantee.

kulbuntet · 9th October 2008, 01:08 AM

Please coment to this keris and Jawa deman hilt.

Regards Michel

kai · 9th October 2008, 02:16 AM

Hello Michel,

Quote:

Please coment to this keris and Jawa deman hilt.

Looks interesting.

Please post a few more pics in a separate thead - it's best to keep discussions focused on a single piece!

Regards,
Kai

28th August 2008, 10:56 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Look forward to your pictures, Marco. I noticed that Karsten has published a hilt that is a bit resembling, but it doesn't lean as much which was my major point, in Chapter 9,2:15 on his Krisdisk. He estimates his to 17/18th C. David, it's of course not a mendak but we all know what we mean... Here is the blade. Michael Attached Images

28th August 2008, 10:00 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	It's a nice hilt Michael. Sorry i can't give you any more info on it. Wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the blade. Just for arguments sake i think it is clear that this hilt doesn't have a "mendak" pre se. It is more like a selut or a pendokok really, but i assume that in Sumatra they have their own name for it. Does anyone know what this piece should actually be called?

31st August 2008, 10:35 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	That's because Karsten decided to use Javanese terminology all over, instead of local, to make it less confusing. In this case he would probably call it a selut but as I understood what you meant I didn't care. A lot of the terms we use here are "collector terms" anyway and probably the original owners would have been puzzled when we discuss their weapons with all those strange terms from different books. Maybe there are 10 different names for a selut, or mendak, all over Sumatra? Michael

31st August 2008, 11:29 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	[QUOTE=VVV A lot of the terms we use here are "collector terms" anyway and probably the original owners would have been puzzled when we discuss their weapons with all those strange terms from different books. Maybe there are 10 different names for a selut, or mendak, all over Sumatra? [/QUOTE] But aren't you interested in knowing a couple of those names? Wouldn't it be nice to know the terms that the original owner might have used rather than some "collector term"? Hey, i'm just asking here. For some reason though i get the feeling that everyone would rather continue with misused terminology rather that search to see if more accurate words still exist in Sumatran memory. So much of keris culture has slipped away over the years i would think that groups like ours would be interested in rediscovering and preseving some of this lost information instead of following in the mistakes of previous writers.

9th October 2008, 01:08 AM	#8
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Please coment to this keris and Jawa deman hilt. Regards Michel