My first Keris.....but is it a good one??

katana · 12th August 2008, 07:44 PM

Hi David

,
thanks for the 'enlightenment', I actually quite like the 'dress' as it is......its the word 'tourist' ...it always gives me the impression of 'poor quality', souvenir wallhangers....which this one does not seem to be. I have seen some 'tourist quality' keris before, these had thin blades and poorly carved hilts ...so please excuse my knee jerk reaction to the word.. 'tourist'

Regards David

PS You are probably right, I can see this one being the first...of a few

David · 12th August 2008, 08:20 PM

Hi David. I was making no attempts at "enlightenment" here, just merely responding to your question.

There is a reason that i use the word "tourist" in quotation marks. It is not a word i like using simply because it carries a lot of preconceived ideas with it. I don't mean it as a gauge for quality levels. I am just trying to point out that from a cultural perspective this type of dress is not what a Balinese man would general use for his personal keris. I would be interested to know more of the history of this sheath form if anybody knows it, whether it was developed just for the tourist trade or if there is some credence to the idea that they may have been used in traditional theater.
Again, the blade itself is certainly not of "tourist" quality. As for hilts though i would have to say that this is a fairly low level of carving for this particular hilt form. I have often seen old blades like this turn up in this style dress. I have always just figured that someone used what was cheap and available so that they could market the keris without to much of an investment involved. I have a nice one in a variation of this sheath form. It too is a decent carving like yours and the keris fits it perfectly so i kept it and just replaced the hilt with something nicer.

Henk · 12th August 2008, 09:13 PM

David,

At least you are lucky finding a real keris blade in this keris. I saw this one to on ebay. I think as Alan pointed out that the carving isn't so bad on this one. These type of keris vary from a rather nice carved example with a real blade to a very quickly carved dress with a cut out blade from a sheet of metal with painted pamor. This is certainly tourist stuff. If you're lucky the precious jewels are glass beads.
These kind of keris are used in barong dances, also performed for tourists. I can imagine that during these performances this kind of keris are sold to the public.

A. G. Maisey · 13th August 2008, 12:23 AM

I don't think this form of dress was ever used in dances in Bali, except possibly in the dances specifically staged for tourists, as remarked by Henk.

I do not know exactly when this form of dress began to appear, but I have never seen any that I could estimate a pre-WWII age for. In the late 1960's I don't think I saw any of this dress around, but it did seem to become fairly prevalent during the 1970's. The early ones used old blades, and there were some pretty decent blades in some of them, but later ones did only use flat iron, with painted on pamor.In recent years I have not seen these in Bali, and I think they may not be being made any longer, which makes this form a worthwhile part of a collection.

On the subject of "tourist quality".
In Bali there is a very wide range of quality that is available to tourists.
Some is superb art, specifically produced for tourist consumption. Some is absolute junk.
Virtually all of the craft and art that we presently identify as "Balinese" is the product of the influence of European artists who went to live in Bali in the late pre-WWII period. The original Balinese art was and is not nearly so refined and not nearly so attractive to the western taste as is the type of thing that we are accustomed to identifying as "Balinese'.A good book on this subject is Urs Ramseyer--"Art and Craft of Bali".

In its application to the keris, the true "tourist quality" keris is a piece of flat iron, with or without painted on pamor.

Any keris that has a traditionally produced blade, whether old, recent, or brand new, is not able to be classified as "tourist". These keris are all a part of a continuing tradition.However, in the case of the keris under discussion, the blade is culturally correct, the dress is not.

David (mod) is absolutely correct when he says that this beautifully carved dress is not culturally correct. This is a product produced for visitors to Bali. However, Balinese men do not always wear culturally correct keris. The photo here was taken in 2007 on the eve of Hari Nyepi, in Kuta.Note the type of keris being worn.

Again David (mod) is correct when he says that the quality of the hilt of the keris under discussion is not particularly good, however, to replace it with a modern, well carved hilt could well cost more than the rest of the keris cost.

asomotif · 13th August 2008, 12:53 PM

Thread with a flat iron blade in similar dress :

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=tourist+bali

and a thread with old blade in similar 'tourist' dress :

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=tourist+bali

This last on I personally picked up from an estate sale and was probabaly collected 1960/1970's

brekele · 13th August 2008, 07:33 PM

I have no idea if this both kerises are including in keris tourist catagory, but the worked of pamor and warangka looks not bad (only quality of kinatah & mendak is a bit disturb). For beginner keris colector .....(like me), this is the best way to begin learning about keris before to go further to collect old ones.
They are looking good on the wall

Marcokeris · 13th August 2008, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brekele

I have no idea if this both kerises are including in keris tourist catagory, but the worked of pamor and warangka looks not bad (only quality of kinatah & mendak is a bit disturb). For beginner keris colector .....(like me), this is the best way to begin learning about keris before to go further to collect old ones.
They are looking good on the wall

I agree. Pamor Rante and Ron Genduru W. are really well made. But Kinatah (daphur) of these Madura kerises are....horrendous (of course is my opinion).
I don't think they are tourist kerises. I think they are for today indonesian people (indonesian people that don't know well keris culture)....maybe they used them in ceremony like wedding, anniversary ...
In the markets (pasar) is easy to find these kerises. On the contrary their sarongs are sober: usually sarongs are jointed with sparkling pendok pendok full of coloured stones (glass)

13th August 2008, 12:23 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I don't think this form of dress was ever used in dances in Bali, except possibly in the dances specifically staged for tourists, as remarked by Henk. I do not know exactly when this form of dress began to appear, but I have never seen any that I could estimate a pre-WWII age for. In the late 1960's I don't think I saw any of this dress around, but it did seem to become fairly prevalent during the 1970's. The early ones used old blades, and there were some pretty decent blades in some of them, but later ones did only use flat iron, with painted on pamor.In recent years I have not seen these in Bali, and I think they may not be being made any longer, which makes this form a worthwhile part of a collection. On the subject of "tourist quality". In Bali there is a very wide range of quality that is available to tourists. Some is superb art, specifically produced for tourist consumption. Some is absolute junk. Virtually all of the craft and art that we presently identify as "Balinese" is the product of the influence of European artists who went to live in Bali in the late pre-WWII period. The original Balinese art was and is not nearly so refined and not nearly so attractive to the western taste as is the type of thing that we are accustomed to identifying as "Balinese'.A good book on this subject is Urs Ramseyer--"Art and Craft of Bali". In its application to the keris, the true "tourist quality" keris is a piece of flat iron, with or without painted on pamor. Any keris that has a traditionally produced blade, whether old, recent, or brand new, is not able to be classified as "tourist". These keris are all a part of a continuing tradition.However, in the case of the keris under discussion, the blade is culturally correct, the dress is not. David (mod) is absolutely correct when he says that this beautifully carved dress is not culturally correct. This is a product produced for visitors to Bali. However, Balinese men do not always wear culturally correct keris. The photo here was taken in 2007 on the eve of Hari Nyepi, in Kuta.Note the type of keris being worn. Again David (mod) is correct when he says that the quality of the hilt of the keris under discussion is not particularly good, however, to replace it with a modern, well carved hilt could well cost more than the rest of the keris cost. Attached Images

13th August 2008, 07:33 PM	#6
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	I have no idea if this both kerises are including in keris tourist catagory, but the worked of pamor and warangka looks not bad (only quality of kinatah & mendak is a bit disturb). For beginner keris colector .....(like me), this is the best way to begin learning about keris before to go further to collect old ones. They are looking good on the wall Attached Images

12th August 2008, 07:44 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi David , thanks for the 'enlightenment', I actually quite like the 'dress' as it is......its the word 'tourist' ...it always gives me the impression of 'poor quality', souvenir wallhangers....which this one does not seem to be. I have seen some 'tourist quality' keris before, these had thin blades and poorly carved hilts ...so please excuse my knee jerk reaction to the word.. 'tourist' Regards David PS You are probably right, I can see this one being the first...of a few

12th August 2008, 08:20 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Hi David. I was making no attempts at "enlightenment" here, just merely responding to your question. There is a reason that i use the word "tourist" in quotation marks. It is not a word i like using simply because it carries a lot of preconceived ideas with it. I don't mean it as a gauge for quality levels. I am just trying to point out that from a cultural perspective this type of dress is not what a Balinese man would general use for his personal keris. I would be interested to know more of the history of this sheath form if anybody knows it, whether it was developed just for the tourist trade or if there is some credence to the idea that they may have been used in traditional theater. Again, the blade itself is certainly not of "tourist" quality. As for hilts though i would have to say that this is a fairly low level of carving for this particular hilt form. I have often seen old blades like this turn up in this style dress. I have always just figured that someone used what was cheap and available so that they could market the keris without to much of an investment involved. I have a nice one in a variation of this sheath form. It too is a decent carving like yours and the keris fits it perfectly so i kept it and just replaced the hilt with something nicer.

12th August 2008, 09:13 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	David, At least you are lucky finding a real keris blade in this keris. I saw this one to on ebay. I think as Alan pointed out that the carving isn't so bad on this one. These type of keris vary from a rather nice carved example with a real blade to a very quickly carved dress with a cut out blade from a sheet of metal with painted pamor. This is certainly tourist stuff. If you're lucky the precious jewels are glass beads. These kind of keris are used in barong dances, also performed for tourists. I can imagine that during these performances this kind of keris are sold to the public.

13th August 2008, 12:53 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	Thread with a flat iron blade in similar dress : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=tourist+bali and a thread with old blade in similar 'tourist' dress : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=tourist+bali This last on I personally picked up from an estate sale and was probabaly collected 1960/1970's