It's the same old story

A. G. Maisey · 9th August 2008, 11:44 PM

You clean a blade with pineapple juice, especially in hot weather, the stink will lift your head off. The growth on the top of the juice makes you feel like some repulsive alien is going to crawl out of it when you're asleep.

Henk, old Jawa blades are mostly contrasting types of iron with no nickel content at all. The white material ( or as you say, light grey) is iron with a high phosphorus content. A lot of pamor luwu has very low nickel content, and that has similar appearance to the multi irons type pamor.

One of the big problems with staining is in the method used. It seems that most people these days use the soak method, that is really only a cheap and effective way of doing a lot of blades, its the method used by commercial stainers.If you use this method, sooner or later the suspension of lime juice and arsenic loses its potency and on the way towards this loss of potency, you get lesser and lesser results.

This soak method is not what should be used for valuable blades, nor in a situation where you have only one or two blades to do, nor when you have a blade that you want the best possible result from, nor when you have a difficult blade.

You've got to get a blade really nice and white before you even start to think about staining. When you think you've got an acceptably stained blade, take the blade out into direct sunlight and examine it very carefully from several different angles. Often you will find patches of brown or yellow under the black of the stain. Depending on the value and importance of the blade, a blade that shows these discolored patches should be considered for a re-do. Clean off, start again. I've spent days one after the other on important blades, trying to get exactly the correct finish. Nobody doing commercial staining can afford to do this, and nobody I know would be prepared to pay for the work if he did.But working on your own blades, or doing something as a favour, you can afford to adopt a different approach.

The best finish possible varies from blade to blade, and very definitely depends upon the material.

Henk · 10th August 2008, 08:25 AM

Thanks Alan, for your reply.

The few people I know who do staining here in Holland don't use the soak method. The use a brush to bring the warangan on the blade. Not only the loss of potency but the lack of control during the process is the reason why they don't soak.

For a commercial stainer it is impossible to work in this way indeed. The person who did staining for me works in the same way. When he was not satisfied he cleaned the blade and started over again.

A. G. Maisey · 10th August 2008, 09:12 AM

Yeah, brush is the safest and easiest way to do it. I've been telling people how to do it this way for over 30 years now, and I've published it a couple of times.

There is at least one better way than brush, but I'm not prepared to publish that, as there is a degree of risk involved.

Henk · 10th August 2008, 10:23 AM

Alan,

As you once said, arsenic is as deadly as a magnum 44. But used in the right way it isn't dangerous at all.

I think it is very wise not to publish a more risky method in public.

Rick · 10th August 2008, 04:45 PM

So Henk,
When you stained the keris with Sulphur what did you use for ingredients ?

Did the blade really stink even after a thorough wash and oiling ?

I'm thinking of trying ferric on this blade as it has a smooth surface .

A. G. Maisey · 10th August 2008, 11:30 PM

Rick, that blade will be difficult to get a satisfactory result on with ferric chloride.

You need to get a blade absolutely 100% clean before you begin any staining. It must be white. Your blade has a few spots where rust will still be there, even after a really thorough soak and scrub. Those spots where there is still rust will give a dirty yellowish tint to the blade when you stain with ferric chloride.

You could give it a try and see if its acceptable to you, if its not, you just clean off and do something different. Spotting the rust areas with hydrochloric acid can help in preparation.

Something else that can give an almost OK result is a wash with dilute nitric acid.It works OK, but it is absolutely horrible stuff to use.

In fact, there's really no need to dwell too long on the advisability of any staining:- if you feel like doing it, just go ahead and do it; if you don't like the result you just clean it off, you can't hurt the blade no matter what you do---barring things like soaks in aqua regis.

10th August 2008, 04:45 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	So Henk, When you stained the keris with Sulphur what did you use for ingredients ? Did the blade really stink even after a thorough wash and oiling ? I'm thinking of trying ferric on this blade as it has a smooth surface . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 10th August 2008 at 06:55 PM.

9th August 2008, 11:44 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	You clean a blade with pineapple juice, especially in hot weather, the stink will lift your head off. The growth on the top of the juice makes you feel like some repulsive alien is going to crawl out of it when you're asleep. Henk, old Jawa blades are mostly contrasting types of iron with no nickel content at all. The white material ( or as you say, light grey) is iron with a high phosphorus content. A lot of pamor luwu has very low nickel content, and that has similar appearance to the multi irons type pamor. One of the big problems with staining is in the method used. It seems that most people these days use the soak method, that is really only a cheap and effective way of doing a lot of blades, its the method used by commercial stainers.If you use this method, sooner or later the suspension of lime juice and arsenic loses its potency and on the way towards this loss of potency, you get lesser and lesser results. This soak method is not what should be used for valuable blades, nor in a situation where you have only one or two blades to do, nor when you have a blade that you want the best possible result from, nor when you have a difficult blade. You've got to get a blade really nice and white before you even start to think about staining. When you think you've got an acceptably stained blade, take the blade out into direct sunlight and examine it very carefully from several different angles. Often you will find patches of brown or yellow under the black of the stain. Depending on the value and importance of the blade, a blade that shows these discolored patches should be considered for a re-do. Clean off, start again. I've spent days one after the other on important blades, trying to get exactly the correct finish. Nobody doing commercial staining can afford to do this, and nobody I know would be prepared to pay for the work if he did.But working on your own blades, or doing something as a favour, you can afford to adopt a different approach. The best finish possible varies from blade to blade, and very definitely depends upon the material.

10th August 2008, 08:25 AM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Thanks Alan, for your reply. The few people I know who do staining here in Holland don't use the soak method. The use a brush to bring the warangan on the blade. Not only the loss of potency but the lack of control during the process is the reason why they don't soak. For a commercial stainer it is impossible to work in this way indeed. The person who did staining for me works in the same way. When he was not satisfied he cleaned the blade and started over again.

10th August 2008, 09:12 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yeah, brush is the safest and easiest way to do it. I've been telling people how to do it this way for over 30 years now, and I've published it a couple of times. There is at least one better way than brush, but I'm not prepared to publish that, as there is a degree of risk involved.

10th August 2008, 10:23 AM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, As you once said, arsenic is as deadly as a magnum 44. But used in the right way it isn't dangerous at all. I think it is very wise not to publish a more risky method in public.

10th August 2008, 11:30 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Rick, that blade will be difficult to get a satisfactory result on with ferric chloride. You need to get a blade absolutely 100% clean before you begin any staining. It must be white. Your blade has a few spots where rust will still be there, even after a really thorough soak and scrub. Those spots where there is still rust will give a dirty yellowish tint to the blade when you stain with ferric chloride. You could give it a try and see if its acceptable to you, if its not, you just clean off and do something different. Spotting the rust areas with hydrochloric acid can help in preparation. Something else that can give an almost OK result is a wash with dilute nitric acid.It works OK, but it is absolutely horrible stuff to use. In fact, there's really no need to dwell too long on the advisability of any staining:- if you feel like doing it, just go ahead and do it; if you don't like the result you just clean it off, you can't hurt the blade no matter what you do---barring things like soaks in aqua regis.