It's the same old story

sjors · 9th August 2008, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Yep, i am afraid that the "same old story" gets the "same old answer".

David, I was allready afraid of that

Let there be no misunderstandig: I prefer the "old" way and I'm fully aware of the fact that everything is allready tried but I am just wondering what happens chemically if one applies warangan and lemonjuice on iron...
I'm not a chemist (I wish I was) but this would be an interessting field of research: I know that, chemically seen, there should be way(s) to get the same results... but still there aren't!

So far nobody had similar results but in the past someone did discover the effect of lime and warangan on iron and nickel.
I wonder why, till now, inspite of all our knowledge, no one was able to reproduce that "discovery" (after all, it's just chemical science

)

Henk; if I know an alternative way, you're the first I will tell

Mr. Maisey: Are you able to tell we what the difference is in using rice water instead of tapwater? Does it prevent rust or is there another reason: what is the effect of the rice? Thank you, Sjors

Marcokeris: chemic's Nobel, that would be nice but I allready know it won't be me

A. G. Maisey · 9th August 2008, 07:43 AM

Sorry, I have no idea what the difference would be between rice water and any other water. I used rice water because I was following a method described in a 19th century book---it called for rice water, I used rice water, the method worked.

sjors · 9th August 2008, 07:51 AM

Dear Mr. Maisey,

Would it be possible to publice the sulfur, salt ricewaterreceipe here?
That would be very nice

Thank you, Sjors

A. G. Maisey · 9th August 2008, 01:37 PM

There is no recipe, per se.

I read a description in a 19th century book written by an Englishman who observed the process. I forget what quantities I used, but I would still have the book, although I cannot remember which one it is.If I can find it, I'll post what is written.

sjors · 9th August 2008, 02:47 PM

Thank you very much!

Henk · 9th August 2008, 02:57 PM

Rick,

I'm aware of some people who stains pamorblades traditionally here in Holland. Especially one person who wants to stay anonymous did the staining for me on some keris who needed it badly.
As Alan and Marcokeris said the results vary, especially on older blades. I was told that the result depended on the kind of materials that was used for the blade. Older blades where made with knickle contenting iron with very low nickle. Those blades have a more grey pamor appearance. Some blades need a week staining before the pamor becomes visible, other blades needed half an hour to get a result.

Sjors,

Just like Alan I stained a worthless keris blade once with sulphur to find out the result. The result was acceptable indeed, but that smell.....

You won't get permission from the mrs. to bring a keris stained with sulphur in the house. And if you get permission it will save you some money. Your friends won't come to drink a beer with you

.

sjors · 9th August 2008, 04:18 PM

Okay Henk it's obvious, it's always the same: you have to choose between your relatives and your hobbies, anyway you loose

A. G. Maisey · 9th August 2008, 11:44 PM

You clean a blade with pineapple juice, especially in hot weather, the stink will lift your head off. The growth on the top of the juice makes you feel like some repulsive alien is going to crawl out of it when you're asleep.

Henk, old Jawa blades are mostly contrasting types of iron with no nickel content at all. The white material ( or as you say, light grey) is iron with a high phosphorus content. A lot of pamor luwu has very low nickel content, and that has similar appearance to the multi irons type pamor.

One of the big problems with staining is in the method used. It seems that most people these days use the soak method, that is really only a cheap and effective way of doing a lot of blades, its the method used by commercial stainers.If you use this method, sooner or later the suspension of lime juice and arsenic loses its potency and on the way towards this loss of potency, you get lesser and lesser results.

This soak method is not what should be used for valuable blades, nor in a situation where you have only one or two blades to do, nor when you have a blade that you want the best possible result from, nor when you have a difficult blade.

You've got to get a blade really nice and white before you even start to think about staining. When you think you've got an acceptably stained blade, take the blade out into direct sunlight and examine it very carefully from several different angles. Often you will find patches of brown or yellow under the black of the stain. Depending on the value and importance of the blade, a blade that shows these discolored patches should be considered for a re-do. Clean off, start again. I've spent days one after the other on important blades, trying to get exactly the correct finish. Nobody doing commercial staining can afford to do this, and nobody I know would be prepared to pay for the work if he did.But working on your own blades, or doing something as a favour, you can afford to adopt a different approach.

The best finish possible varies from blade to blade, and very definitely depends upon the material.

9th August 2008, 07:43 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Sorry, I have no idea what the difference would be between rice water and any other water. I used rice water because I was following a method described in a 19th century book---it called for rice water, I used rice water, the method worked.

9th August 2008, 07:51 AM	#3
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68	Dear Mr. Maisey, Would it be possible to publice the sulfur, salt ricewaterreceipe here? That would be very nice Thank you, Sjors

9th August 2008, 01:37 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	There is no recipe, per se. I read a description in a 19th century book written by an Englishman who observed the process. I forget what quantities I used, but I would still have the book, although I cannot remember which one it is.If I can find it, I'll post what is written.

9th August 2008, 02:47 PM	#5
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68	Thank you very much!

9th August 2008, 02:57 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Rick, I'm aware of some people who stains pamorblades traditionally here in Holland. Especially one person who wants to stay anonymous did the staining for me on some keris who needed it badly. As Alan and Marcokeris said the results vary, especially on older blades. I was told that the result depended on the kind of materials that was used for the blade. Older blades where made with knickle contenting iron with very low nickle. Those blades have a more grey pamor appearance. Some blades need a week staining before the pamor becomes visible, other blades needed half an hour to get a result. Sjors, Just like Alan I stained a worthless keris blade once with sulphur to find out the result. The result was acceptable indeed, but that smell..... You won't get permission from the mrs. to bring a keris stained with sulphur in the house. And if you get permission it will save you some money. Your friends won't come to drink a beer with you .

9th August 2008, 04:18 PM	#7
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68	Okay Henk it's obvious, it's always the same: you have to choose between your relatives and your hobbies, anyway you loose

9th August 2008, 11:44 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	You clean a blade with pineapple juice, especially in hot weather, the stink will lift your head off. The growth on the top of the juice makes you feel like some repulsive alien is going to crawl out of it when you're asleep. Henk, old Jawa blades are mostly contrasting types of iron with no nickel content at all. The white material ( or as you say, light grey) is iron with a high phosphorus content. A lot of pamor luwu has very low nickel content, and that has similar appearance to the multi irons type pamor. One of the big problems with staining is in the method used. It seems that most people these days use the soak method, that is really only a cheap and effective way of doing a lot of blades, its the method used by commercial stainers.If you use this method, sooner or later the suspension of lime juice and arsenic loses its potency and on the way towards this loss of potency, you get lesser and lesser results. This soak method is not what should be used for valuable blades, nor in a situation where you have only one or two blades to do, nor when you have a blade that you want the best possible result from, nor when you have a difficult blade. You've got to get a blade really nice and white before you even start to think about staining. When you think you've got an acceptably stained blade, take the blade out into direct sunlight and examine it very carefully from several different angles. Often you will find patches of brown or yellow under the black of the stain. Depending on the value and importance of the blade, a blade that shows these discolored patches should be considered for a re-do. Clean off, start again. I've spent days one after the other on important blades, trying to get exactly the correct finish. Nobody doing commercial staining can afford to do this, and nobody I know would be prepared to pay for the work if he did.But working on your own blades, or doing something as a favour, you can afford to adopt a different approach. The best finish possible varies from blade to blade, and very definitely depends upon the material.