It's the same old story

Henk · 8th August 2008, 08:50 PM

Sjors,

If there was an alternative way, many of us would use that way. Unfortunately there is only one proper way to stain a pamor blade and that is the use of warangan, with arsenic. Nothing else react as lemon juice with arsenic. Believe me, many of the respectable forummembers tried to stain pamorblades with other solutions, but thus far nobody succeeded to get a result that came in the direction of staining with warangan.

Rick · 8th August 2008, 08:58 PM

Henk, are you aware of anyone who stains blades traditionally in the Netherlands ?

It would seem with so much interest in keris there ..

David · 8th August 2008, 09:50 PM

Yep, i am afraid that the "same old story" gets the "same old answer".

A. G. Maisey · 8th August 2008, 11:09 PM

I have stained blades with ferric chloride, and with a mixture of sulphur, salt, and rice water.

The sulphur mix was used on an old blade and it came up very acceptable. Only ever did one blade this way, as it was too much mucking around.

Ferric chloride I've use a number of times, and for old style Javanese pamor, or Bugis pamor, it gives a fairly OK result.

I've used warangan (realgar) bought in Indonesia many, many times. The results are variable, and not always predictable. I personally don't like Javanese warangan much. In fact, at the moment the stuff that's available in Solo is absolutely no good.

I get the best results from laboratory quality white arsenic.

Yes, these days there are difficulties associated with buying it, but in Australia, if you have a Hazchem certificate you can get it. You can get a Hazchem certificate, that is, a certificate that qualifies you to handle hazardous chemicals, for the cost a bit of tech attendance and some easy exams.My guess would be that the same or a similar situation applies in other countries. I guess it all depends on how bad somebody wants to stain blades correctly.

Marcokeris · 9th August 2008, 02:13 AM

I stained blades with warangan many, many times. I tried also with others substances but the result was always bad

. By warangam with new blades the result has been always good

........with old blades

sometimes good.... sometimes accettable...sometimes no good

If a person finds an easy way to stain the blades he must win chemic's Nobel

Tomorrow I must stain an old blade ....first time (a week ago) the result was no accettable. Now I have done a new liquid (brasilian limes and warangan) i hope to have a different exit (IMO the more difficult passage is the final : when I must clean the blade with water)

sjors · 9th August 2008, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Yep, i am afraid that the "same old story" gets the "same old answer".

David, I was allready afraid of that

Let there be no misunderstandig: I prefer the "old" way and I'm fully aware of the fact that everything is allready tried but I am just wondering what happens chemically if one applies warangan and lemonjuice on iron...
I'm not a chemist (I wish I was) but this would be an interessting field of research: I know that, chemically seen, there should be way(s) to get the same results... but still there aren't!

So far nobody had similar results but in the past someone did discover the effect of lime and warangan on iron and nickel.
I wonder why, till now, inspite of all our knowledge, no one was able to reproduce that "discovery" (after all, it's just chemical science

)

Henk; if I know an alternative way, you're the first I will tell

Mr. Maisey: Are you able to tell we what the difference is in using rice water instead of tapwater? Does it prevent rust or is there another reason: what is the effect of the rice? Thank you, Sjors

Marcokeris: chemic's Nobel, that would be nice but I allready know it won't be me

A. G. Maisey · 9th August 2008, 07:43 AM

Sorry, I have no idea what the difference would be between rice water and any other water. I used rice water because I was following a method described in a 19th century book---it called for rice water, I used rice water, the method worked.

Marcokeris · 11th August 2008, 09:12 PM

[QUOTE=Marcokeris]I stained blades with warangan many, many times........

Yesterday i tried to stain my old blade with new solution (Warangan and limes) well..... the result was a real fully unsucesfull

To day i have used my very old solution (with a little new solution inside) and the result has been good (better than the original old pamor)

Conclusion:

Henk · 12th August 2008, 09:28 PM

Rick,

The chemistry teacher made the sulphur acid solution for me. She used concentrated sulphur acid and distilled water. I did it in the chemistry room next to the classroom at school. Some students came to take a look at the process from time to to time with the permission of the teacher. It became an educational project as well. The solution was as strong as the sulphur acid in a car battery. It was 20 or 25%.

And yes, even after washing and oiling that lovely stink of the sulphur came into your nose. I just left the blade (it was a worthless one after all) a few weeks in the garage. Now it is in a box on the attic in the garage. Didn't look at it for ages.

8th August 2008, 08:50 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Sjors, If there was an alternative way, many of us would use that way. Unfortunately there is only one proper way to stain a pamor blade and that is the use of warangan, with arsenic. Nothing else react as lemon juice with arsenic. Believe me, many of the respectable forummembers tried to stain pamorblades with other solutions, but thus far nobody succeeded to get a result that came in the direction of staining with warangan.

8th August 2008, 08:58 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Henk, are you aware of anyone who stains blades traditionally in the Netherlands ? It would seem with so much interest in keris there ..

8th August 2008, 09:50 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Yep, i am afraid that the "same old story" gets the "same old answer".

8th August 2008, 11:09 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I have stained blades with ferric chloride, and with a mixture of sulphur, salt, and rice water. The sulphur mix was used on an old blade and it came up very acceptable. Only ever did one blade this way, as it was too much mucking around. Ferric chloride I've use a number of times, and for old style Javanese pamor, or Bugis pamor, it gives a fairly OK result. I've used warangan (realgar) bought in Indonesia many, many times. The results are variable, and not always predictable. I personally don't like Javanese warangan much. In fact, at the moment the stuff that's available in Solo is absolutely no good. I get the best results from laboratory quality white arsenic. Yes, these days there are difficulties associated with buying it, but in Australia, if you have a Hazchem certificate you can get it. You can get a Hazchem certificate, that is, a certificate that qualifies you to handle hazardous chemicals, for the cost a bit of tech attendance and some easy exams.My guess would be that the same or a similar situation applies in other countries. I guess it all depends on how bad somebody wants to stain blades correctly.

9th August 2008, 02:13 AM	#5
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I stained blades with warangan many, many times. I tried also with others substances but the result was always bad . By warangam with new blades the result has been always good ........with old blades sometimes good.... sometimes accettable...sometimes no good If a person finds an easy way to stain the blades he must win chemic's Nobel Tomorrow I must stain an old blade ....first time (a week ago) the result was no accettable. Now I have done a new liquid (brasilian limes and warangan) i hope to have a different exit (IMO the more difficult passage is the final : when I must clean the blade with water)

9th August 2008, 07:43 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Sorry, I have no idea what the difference would be between rice water and any other water. I used rice water because I was following a method described in a 19th century book---it called for rice water, I used rice water, the method worked.

11th August 2008, 09:12 PM	#8
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	[QUOTE=Marcokeris]I stained blades with warangan many, many times........ Yesterday i tried to stain my old blade with new solution (Warangan and limes) well..... the result was a real fully unsucesfull To day i have used my very old solution (with a little new solution inside) and the result has been good (better than the original old pamor) Conclusion:

12th August 2008, 09:28 PM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Rick, The chemistry teacher made the sulphur acid solution for me. She used concentrated sulphur acid and distilled water. I did it in the chemistry room next to the classroom at school. Some students came to take a look at the process from time to to time with the permission of the teacher. It became an educational project as well. The solution was as strong as the sulphur acid in a car battery. It was 20 or 25%. And yes, even after washing and oiling that lovely stink of the sulphur came into your nose. I just left the blade (it was a worthless one after all) a few weeks in the garage. Now it is in a box on the attic in the garage. Didn't look at it for ages.