Kastane for comments

Jim McDougall · 6th August 2008, 09:51 PM

This really is an interesting piece! and actually it is not a 'kastane' (the word derives from the Portuguese term for a decorative walking stick) but an 'interpretation' of one. The Sinhalese kastane seems to be primarily an 18th century form, though the earliest example of the well established hilt form appears to have been in the early 17th century. The ancestry for the motif on these hilts seem to derive from Hindu iconography figures, the figure on the pommel of course the Sinha (=lion) while on quillons are makaras.
Most examples of kastanes have the distinct hilt with quillon system that is believed to derive from those of Arabian nimcha type hilts, which in turn likely were influenced by early Venetian types.

This piece appears to have some sound evidence of age, and reminds me of the old chestnut; "a camel is actually a horse designed by a committee"

The hilt shows all of the correct features incorporated in the typical kastane hilts, however the arrangement is incongruent. The inner vestigial quillons on this interpretation are placed entirely below the upper quillon, and the extended rouded langet has nothing to do with the usual triangular type seen on normal kastanes.

Most interesting of all is the face incorporated into the knuckleguard, which does distinctly show European influence, in recalling the faces typically seen in the man in the moon face seen inscribed on European trade blades. These moon and sun faces are of course cabbalist symbols reflected on many 18th century blades with talismanic/quality implications.

The scabbards on this, as well as on the example Katana has posted seem to reflect the pierced and repousse work seen on sword mountings of the 18th to early 19th century in Hyderabad for export to Arab markets (see "Arms and Armour of Arabia" Elgood, which shows these, many with piercing and brass of 19th century), and the figure at the scabbard tip reminiscent of Ottoman scabbards as well as the thum on Omani janbiyya.

I'm unclear on the unusual blade shape on this, but seems to concur, at least in age estimation, from what I can see, probably 19th century. This seems to be something more intended for presentation or award, and while it would be difficult to place geographically by form, it seems to have been created in that period entering the complex trade networks from SE Asia, India and Arabia.

Extremely nice example, and though not a kastane variant, a very attractive piece. Its a great anomaly, just like I like 'em!!

Best regards,
Jim

fernando · 7th August 2008, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...(the word derives from the Portuguese term for a decorative walking stick) ...

Is that so Jim? Can you give a track on the Portuguese word ? I just don't get it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Most examples of kastanes have the distinct hilt with quillon system that is believed to derive from those of Arabian nimcha type hilts, which in turn likely were influenced by early Venetian types.

The ricasso and the down turned quillons in Ceylon swords ... weren't they influenced by Portuguese

Sorry for my ignorance ... and impertinence.
Fernando

Atlantia · 7th August 2008, 12:19 AM

I suppose its too much to hope for that there are any marks on the blade?
It also has a Euro feel to me.
Reminds me of small hunting hangers.

I know its grasping at straws, but I was wondering if a local craftsman rehilted a European blade and retained a representation of an original decorative element.

fernando · 7th August 2008, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Is that so Jim? Can you give a track on the Portuguese word ? I just don't get it

Could it come from "castão" ? The ornamental top of walking canes and other utensiles ?

Bill M · 7th August 2008, 01:51 AM

Very nice find. The huge majority of kastane have never appealed to me, but I really like this one! Artzi's piece secondly. Like yours better.

VANDOO · 7th August 2008, 02:11 AM

I AM CERTIANLY NO EXPERT ON THESE SWORDS BUT HAVE LOOKED AT QUITE A FEW OVER THE LAST 40 YEARS OR SO. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY LIKE THESE TWO EXAMPLES WHICH ARE CAST BRASS AND HAVE BRASS SCABBARDS AND CLEAN BLADES. I SUSPECT THEY ARE MORE RECENT ITEMS MADE FOR PARADE OR CEREMONIAL DRESS OR PRESENTATION OR POSSIBLY A HIGH END SOUVINEER. AT A GUESS NO OLDER THAN 1970'S

PERHAPS WE HAVE A MEMBER FROM SIRI LANKA WHO CAN GIVE US BETTER INFORMATION.??
THE REASONS I SUSPECT THIS IS.
MOST OF THE OLD EXAMPLES DO NOT HAVE SCABBARDS ,BECAUSE THEY WERE VERY THIN WOOD WITH VERY FANCY HAND WORKED SILVER TIPS, FITTINGS AND THROATS AND WERE VERY FRAGILE ESPECIALLY WITH AGE.
THE BLADES WERE ALL IN VERY DARK PATINA AND IN POOR SHAPE.
THE HANDLES WERE VERY OLD MATERIAL LIKE THAT USED ON MOST PHIA KATTA AND SILVER AND GOLD DECORATION WAS USUALLY APPLIED ON GOOD OLD EXAMPLES.
WHILE THESE EXAMPLES ARE VERY ATTRACTIVE THE WORKMANSHIP AND MATERIAL THAT WENT INTO THEIR MAKING IS VERY POOR COMPARED TO THE GOOD OLD EXAMPLES. THEY WOULD BE A LOT FASTER AND EASIER TO PRODUCE THAN THE OLD CRAFTSMAN'S WORK BUT NOT UP TO THE QUALITY.
ON A POSITIVE NOTE THEY WOULD BE MUCH STURDIER THAN THE OLD ONES AND THE SOLID BRASS OR BRONZE WILL HOLD UP A LOT LONGER AND BE LESS EASILY DAMMAGED THAN THE OLD MATERIALS.

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2008, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Could it come from "castão" ? The ornamental top of walking canes and other utensiles ?

Thank you so much Fernando for reading my post! You know how rusty I am at Portuguese

but the 'castao' term was the one I saw, and havent found my notes yet, otherwise I could have cited the reference.

Sure, the hilt form could have come from the Portuguese swords, which in turn had the same arrangement as the Italian swords of end of 15th century, which influenced the Moroccan nimchas in the Meditteranean trade in the 17th century. It would be difficult to determine a line of progressive diffusion of this quillon arrangement, though the Portuguese colonization throughout the many coastal regions of Africa, India, China is well established. The Arab trade is equally well known, and Ceylon was the Serandib of Arabian lore.

It seems that Italian sword and blade manufacture was the origin of considerable developing influence on sword centers in Iberia, Black Sea regions, Africa, India over quite a period . For some reason I feel more inclined to think that the exporting of Italian products and smiths in many cases led to influencing the regions receiving them than the other way around, although reciprocal diffusion over time would be expected in degree.
We know that swordmaking in Europe was centralized in early times pretty much in Frankish regions, then with Celtibereans , but with the Renaissance came also fashion accompanying the use of the sword. With Italy holding resounding prominence in that period, as well as the prevailing trade of Venice and Genoa,and the influences of these city states spread accordingly.

Perhaps the Portuguese term said to be etymologically at the root of the term 'kastane' would add credence to the Portuguese weapons influencing the Sinhalese to fashion the swords of thier notables with similar hilt arrangement. The same arrangement appears on early Dutch hangers, and we know they were in the neighborhood, just as the Arabs, Venetians, Chinese and others. All of these powers were keenly in business in some degree with Ceylon exporting the valuable steel produced there, so it would be difficult to say which held the credit for influencing the first prototype.

Vandoo offers some pretty good reasoning there, and I would go along with a presentation or gift type item, but this seems older than 30 + years, hard to say from pictures.

I'd like to hear some other views on kastane's and thier origin. What I would really like to see is some examples with VOC blades, as discussed many times over the years. My research turned up early 17th century for earliest examples of this hilt.....anybody have other ideas?

What is the symbolism of the Sinha and Makara in terms of the Sinhalese perspective? Most examples seem 18th century, anybody have 19th century examples out there?

Best regards,
Jim

7th August 2008, 12:19 AM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I suppose its too much to hope for that there are any marks on the blade? It also has a Euro feel to me. Reminds me of small hunting hangers. I know its grasping at straws, but I was wondering if a local craftsman rehilted a European blade and retained a representation of an original decorative element. Last edited by Atlantia; 7th August 2008 at 12:33 AM.

6th August 2008, 09:51 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	This really is an interesting piece! and actually it is not a 'kastane' (the word derives from the Portuguese term for a decorative walking stick) but an 'interpretation' of one. The Sinhalese kastane seems to be primarily an 18th century form, though the earliest example of the well established hilt form appears to have been in the early 17th century. The ancestry for the motif on these hilts seem to derive from Hindu iconography figures, the figure on the pommel of course the Sinha (=lion) while on quillons are makaras. Most examples of kastanes have the distinct hilt with quillon system that is believed to derive from those of Arabian nimcha type hilts, which in turn likely were influenced by early Venetian types. This piece appears to have some sound evidence of age, and reminds me of the old chestnut; "a camel is actually a horse designed by a committee" The hilt shows all of the correct features incorporated in the typical kastane hilts, however the arrangement is incongruent. The inner vestigial quillons on this interpretation are placed entirely below the upper quillon, and the extended rouded langet has nothing to do with the usual triangular type seen on normal kastanes. Most interesting of all is the face incorporated into the knuckleguard, which does distinctly show European influence, in recalling the faces typically seen in the man in the moon face seen inscribed on European trade blades. These moon and sun faces are of course cabbalist symbols reflected on many 18th century blades with talismanic/quality implications. The scabbards on this, as well as on the example Katana has posted seem to reflect the pierced and repousse work seen on sword mountings of the 18th to early 19th century in Hyderabad for export to Arab markets (see "Arms and Armour of Arabia" Elgood, which shows these, many with piercing and brass of 19th century), and the figure at the scabbard tip reminiscent of Ottoman scabbards as well as the thum on Omani janbiyya. I'm unclear on the unusual blade shape on this, but seems to concur, at least in age estimation, from what I can see, probably 19th century. This seems to be something more intended for presentation or award, and while it would be difficult to place geographically by form, it seems to have been created in that period entering the complex trade networks from SE Asia, India and Arabia. Extremely nice example, and though not a kastane variant, a very attractive piece. Its a great anomaly, just like I like 'em!! Best regards, Jim

7th August 2008, 01:51 AM	#5
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Very nice find. The huge majority of kastane have never appealed to me, but I really like this one! Artzi's piece secondly. Like yours better.

7th August 2008, 02:11 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM CERTIANLY NO EXPERT ON THESE SWORDS BUT HAVE LOOKED AT QUITE A FEW OVER THE LAST 40 YEARS OR SO. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY LIKE THESE TWO EXAMPLES WHICH ARE CAST BRASS AND HAVE BRASS SCABBARDS AND CLEAN BLADES. I SUSPECT THEY ARE MORE RECENT ITEMS MADE FOR PARADE OR CEREMONIAL DRESS OR PRESENTATION OR POSSIBLY A HIGH END SOUVINEER. AT A GUESS NO OLDER THAN 1970'S PERHAPS WE HAVE A MEMBER FROM SIRI LANKA WHO CAN GIVE US BETTER INFORMATION.?? THE REASONS I SUSPECT THIS IS. MOST OF THE OLD EXAMPLES DO NOT HAVE SCABBARDS ,BECAUSE THEY WERE VERY THIN WOOD WITH VERY FANCY HAND WORKED SILVER TIPS, FITTINGS AND THROATS AND WERE VERY FRAGILE ESPECIALLY WITH AGE. THE BLADES WERE ALL IN VERY DARK PATINA AND IN POOR SHAPE. THE HANDLES WERE VERY OLD MATERIAL LIKE THAT USED ON MOST PHIA KATTA AND SILVER AND GOLD DECORATION WAS USUALLY APPLIED ON GOOD OLD EXAMPLES. WHILE THESE EXAMPLES ARE VERY ATTRACTIVE THE WORKMANSHIP AND MATERIAL THAT WENT INTO THEIR MAKING IS VERY POOR COMPARED TO THE GOOD OLD EXAMPLES. THEY WOULD BE A LOT FASTER AND EASIER TO PRODUCE THAN THE OLD CRAFTSMAN'S WORK BUT NOT UP TO THE QUALITY. ON A POSITIVE NOTE THEY WOULD BE MUCH STURDIER THAN THE OLD ONES AND THE SOLID BRASS OR BRONZE WILL HOLD UP A LOT LONGER AND BE LESS EASILY DAMMAGED THAN THE OLD MATERIALS.