Indian 'Main Gauche' ???

Rick · 3rd August 2008, 04:04 AM

What I see here is a spear blade with the base and tang ground away and reshaped to a fat thick point .
The 'original' point of the spear is mounted in the hilt and the reshaped base is now the busniess end .

Married piece IMO .
Just saying ......

katana · 3rd August 2008, 06:09 PM

Thank you all for your input

. I feel it is a married piece, but feel that the marriage was for a 'function'. To me, it seems unlikely that this piece was assembled to 'deceive', more 'value' would be gained with the fitment of a 'longer', more asthetic looking blade. The piece in question is abit of an 'oddball' and have not found its equal anywhere.

The use of the small Dhal was very common, and many sword techniques were learnt in conjunction with the Dhal. It is not unlikely that some warriors could have substuted the small shield for a 'short' sword. Two sworded martial arts are not uncommon in Asia, the abillity to use 'attack' as a form of defence and the blades shortness for close quarter combat ...is, I feel...quite possible.

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 4th August 2008, 04:31 AM

Well thought out assessment David! and I am inclined to agree, this was definitely put together to be used. I'm still curious about the blade, and the distinct raised central ridge reminds me of an earlier native khanda blade that has been ground down to fit the much smaller opening in the hilt. This reminds me of the rapier blade khandas.

The idea of a spear blade that Rick suggested seems plausible also, and again the section recalls the Maasai spear.

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 4th August 2008, 04:12 PM

I think we might want to consider whether or not the hilt configuration would allow proper wrist movement for use as a main gauche .

IIRC in another thread we discussed the limiting of certain movements by the disc pommel .

katana · 4th August 2008, 05:08 PM

Hi Jim,
thank you for your comments

Although, I feel it is easier just to say its a 'married piece', I still feel that this particular 'dagger' could be 'legitimate' and it would be a shame to ignore this 'possiblity'. I had hoped similar examples might be known. If this item is 'unique' there is little chance of proving whether this was a historical compilation or a 'made up' piece for re-sale. I sometimes wonder, whether sometimes ...we are too quick to denounce a particular weapon because it doesn't 'fit' into a 'known category'. I also wondered whether the blade with its Khanda shape had any significance...and I do agree that Rick's suggestion of a spearhead is a good possibility

Hi Rick

,
I am inclined to agree that the disc pommel would limit wrist movement, perhaps less so for an Indian warrior if the 'smaller hand theory' is correct. I did / do not think that the European style of sword use would have been adopted ... I think likely 'adapted'. I used the term 'main gauche' as a sort of European equivalent...but the technique of use, I believe, would be different. I am working on the assumption that this was made for a particular 'function' ....and it seems to 'fit the bill' as some sort of parrying 'sword', although, of course, there are other possible uses.

Kind Regards David

ward · 4th August 2008, 07:24 PM

when it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. This is a marriage and not a good one. I have seen locals banging these items together for resale. If it had been done in period it would at least be more functional.

Andrew · 4th August 2008, 07:35 PM

I'm going to go further than I originally did with this. Not only do I think this blade is not original to the hilt, but I do not believe it was put together "for use".

The complete absence of similar weapons in the Indian tradition speaks volumes in this regard. Many shorter-bladed weapons were produced in India, but none with that type of hilt. There are reasons for this, not the least of which is the fact that hilt doesn't work well with a short blade. Use as a "main gauche" as David has suggested, would be much easier if the handle was one that permitted free movement of the wrist. Is it possible that someone did this to use it so? Certainly. However, Occam's Razor suggests otherwise.

katana · 4th August 2008, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

when it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. This is a marriage and not a good one. I have seen locals banging these items together for resale. If it had been done in period it would at least be more functional.

Hi Ward,
perhaps my enthusiasm sometimes gets the better of me.

But, if the locals are banging these out, someone here must have seen one/bought one ?

Hi Andrew,
thanks for 'putting it gently', 'occum's razor' is certainly the way to go....with no other valid data.

Kind Regards David

A duck..... or rabbit ??

.

4th August 2008, 07:24 PM	#6
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	when it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. This is a marriage and not a good one. I have seen locals banging these items together for resale. If it had been done in period it would at least be more functional. Last edited by ward; 4th August 2008 at 07:46 PM.

3rd August 2008, 04:04 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,366	What I see here is a spear blade with the base and tang ground away and reshaped to a fat thick point . The 'original' point of the spear is mounted in the hilt and the reshaped base is now the busniess end . Married piece IMO . Just saying ......

3rd August 2008, 06:09 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you all for your input . I feel it is a married piece, but feel that the marriage was for a 'function'. To me, it seems unlikely that this piece was assembled to 'deceive', more 'value' would be gained with the fitment of a 'longer', more asthetic looking blade. The piece in question is abit of an 'oddball' and have not found its equal anywhere. The use of the small Dhal was very common, and many sword techniques were learnt in conjunction with the Dhal. It is not unlikely that some warriors could have substuted the small shield for a 'short' sword. Two sworded martial arts are not uncommon in Asia, the abillity to use 'attack' as a form of defence and the blades shortness for close quarter combat ...is, I feel...quite possible. Regards David

4th August 2008, 04:31 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,610	Well thought out assessment David! and I am inclined to agree, this was definitely put together to be used. I'm still curious about the blade, and the distinct raised central ridge reminds me of an earlier native khanda blade that has been ground down to fit the much smaller opening in the hilt. This reminds me of the rapier blade khandas. The idea of a spear blade that Rick suggested seems plausible also, and again the section recalls the Maasai spear. All the best, Jim

4th August 2008, 04:12 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,366	I think we might want to consider whether or not the hilt configuration would allow proper wrist movement for use as a main gauche . IIRC in another thread we discussed the limiting of certain movements by the disc pommel .

4th August 2008, 05:08 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, thank you for your comments Although, I feel it is easier just to say its a 'married piece', I still feel that this particular 'dagger' could be 'legitimate' and it would be a shame to ignore this 'possiblity'. I had hoped similar examples might be known. If this item is 'unique' there is little chance of proving whether this was a historical compilation or a 'made up' piece for re-sale. I sometimes wonder, whether sometimes ...we are too quick to denounce a particular weapon because it doesn't 'fit' into a 'known category'. I also wondered whether the blade with its Khanda shape had any significance...and I do agree that Rick's suggestion of a spearhead is a good possibility Hi Rick , I am inclined to agree that the disc pommel would limit wrist movement, perhaps less so for an Indian warrior if the 'smaller hand theory' is correct. I did / do not think that the European style of sword use would have been adopted ... I think likely 'adapted'. I used the term 'main gauche' as a sort of European equivalent...but the technique of use, I believe, would be different. I am working on the assumption that this was made for a particular 'function' ....and it seems to 'fit the bill' as some sort of parrying 'sword', although, of course, there are other possible uses. Kind Regards David

4th August 2008, 07:35 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I'm going to go further than I originally did with this. Not only do I think this blade is not original to the hilt, but I do not believe it was put together "for use". The complete absence of similar weapons in the Indian tradition speaks volumes in this regard. Many shorter-bladed weapons were produced in India, but none with that type of hilt. There are reasons for this, not the least of which is the fact that hilt doesn't work well with a short blade. Use as a "main gauche" as David has suggested, would be much easier if the handle was one that permitted free movement of the wrist. Is it possible that someone did this to use it so? Certainly. However, Occam's Razor suggests otherwise.