Looking for some Kris info

Battara · 29th July 2008, 02:26 AM

On the gunong, those are silver mounts on the scabbard with one thin one missing.

On the bottom dagger, I have never seen one like that before, but the hilt I am now convinced is narra wood which has a red color that darkens over time. It is what I would call a northern okir engraving. The hands look familiar - perhaps a Katipunan sign of brotherhood? (would need to look up my info if I can find it).

Again, I don't think the leather sheath goes with the knife, but is early and may belong to a Pampangan sword.

All well preserved.

Reichsritter · 29th July 2008, 04:06 AM

"This weapon was taken from the hands of one of the most dreaded Momo (or Moro?)
outlaws that ever was captured in Mindinao. His name was Monermdo (might be wrong-hard to read) and he had a large following of Momo (or Moro?)bandits. He with 16 of his band were killed by the 6th (section of note missing) near the Romain (?) River June 4th 1911"

Probably "near Ramain", one of the 15 Sultanates created by the Maranaos in the 18th and 19th century.

hockeysew · 29th July 2008, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

"This weapon was taken from the hands of one of the most dreaded Momo (or Moro?)
outlaws that ever was captured in Mindinao. His name was Monermdo (might be wrong-hard to read) and he had a large following of Momo (or Moro?)bandits. He with 16 of his band were killed by the 6th (section of note missing) near the Romain (?) River June 4th 1911"

Probably "near Ramain", one of the 15 Sultanates created by the Maranaos in the 18th and 19th century.

That would make sense.
Thank You.

PenangsangII · 30th July 2008, 04:40 AM

here's my 0.02 cents..... I do not want to say this, but judging from your pictures alone, I dont think this is a "captured" blade. Similarly to the gunong. Yes, they both have some age, but IMHO, they both are of souvenir quality made for the outgoing soldiers. Hope others can prove me wrong....

kai · 30th July 2008, 08:41 AM

IMHO this kris is a genuine piece crafted the traditonal Moro way (separate gangya, regular blade thickness, original hilt & pommel with silver bands, solid asang-asang (clamps), original anting-anting cloth); I'd guess that the blade is laminated.

I think it dates around the turn of the 19th/20th century: Without collecting date I'd had estimated 1895-1930 and with the collecting date 1895-1905 seems reasonable. Such a complete piece with sound provenance is rare regardless of age.

I agree that the workmanship (e. g. scroll work on both sides of the gangya, scabbard, etc) is not top-notch, especially not datu quality. However, I'd suggest that comparing kris crafted during the US occupation (BTW, I love how everone contesting US troops becomes a bandit or outlaw

) with mid-19th century (or older) kris is like comparing apples with oranges.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 30th July 2008, 08:44 AM

BTW, I also think this is a good early gunong - get it to Steve and the laminations will make you a believer, I guess.

Ferguson · 30th July 2008, 09:57 AM

Everything i've learned on this forum says that your gunong is a very nice older one. Maybe in the range of 1890-1920? Dating is so very difficult. But for sure it's a nice one, as is the kris. I have a couple that are similar. Oddly to me, most that I have with this very curvy blade are not laminated. Can't explain that. Possibly with such a small blade there was no need to mix the high and lower carbon steels? I don't know.

The other dagger is a mystery to me. I haven't seen anything in that style before. But the quality is good, and it does seem to be Philippine.

I would be prould to own any of these 3 pieces. Treasure them for their value as antique weapons, and for the fact that they belonged to your grandfather.

If you want to see some pics of some of my gunong, they are at http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v1...Public/Gunong/

Steve

hockeysew · 30th July 2008, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

IMHO this kris is a genuine piece crafted the traditonal Moro way (separate gangya, regular blade thickness, original hilt & pommel with silver bands, solid asang-asang (clamps), original anting-anting cloth); I'd guess that the blade is laminated.

I think it dates around the turn of the 19th/20th century: Without collecting date I'd had estimated 1895-1930 and with the collecting date 1895-1905 seems reasonable. Such a complete piece with sound provenance is rare regardless of age.

I agree that the workmanship (e. g. scroll work on both sides of the gangya, scabbard, etc) is not top-notch, especially not datu quality. However, I'd suggest that comparing kris crafted during the US occupation (BTW, I love how everone contesting US troops becomes a bandit or outlaw

) with mid-19th century (or older) kris is like comparing apples with oranges.

Regards,
Kai

I do not believe that the blade is a laminated/Damascus style. I see no indications of any type of lamination.

Bill M · 31st July 2008, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeysew

I do not believe that the blade is a laminated/Damascus style. I see no indications of any type of lamination.

I'd agree with Bill, Kai and the others in that this is a good older -- 1890's blade and though you may not be able to see laminations in it's present state of "polish" I would be very surprised if it was NOT laminated. You could etch it using methods described in several posts on this forum and see.

I have several similar kris and they have laminated blades.

Spunjer · 31st July 2008, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeysew

I do not believe that the blade is a laminated/Damascus style. I see no indications of any type of lamination.

safest way to find out is by placing the blade under hot running water... look for lamination patterns...

David · 30th July 2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

here's my 0.02 cents..... I do not want to say this, but judging from your pictures alone, I dont think this is a "captured" blade. Similarly to the gunong. Yes, they both have some age, but IMHO, they both are of souvenir quality made for the outgoing soldiers. Hope others can prove me wrong....

Penangsang, i am confused as to why you would say this. From everything we have seen in the past on these forums this kris is definitely a very solid, battle quality kris. It is consistent with the time period sited and the blade is of a better than average quality. I would not say, however, that the hilt is of datu quality, though this may well not be the original hilt. The asang-asang does look messed with and not quite in it's proper place. Whether or not it was "captured" remains to be seen, but there is certainly nothing touristy about it, or that rather lovely gugong with the silver fittings.
The other dagger i have never seen before. It appears to be a solid and effective weapon however, and is hardly your standard tourist fare. The grasping hands is, i believe , a Katipunan symbol. Isn't it on their flag or something. I am sure someone hear can remember.

Bill · 30th July 2008, 06:54 PM

This is not a uncommon blade & from everything I know it's a Maranao fighting kris. I have two with similar hilts. The two I have are almost identical & are the same as the one in this post. IMO the blade is excellent, as well the file work, a standard that is lacking on newer swords. This blade is heavy & thicker then the normal kris. Something that makes me wonder if that was intentional considering the period. (less swings/more bang)
1911 is a interesting year. The conflicts were many & this would lead to Pershing giving the general instruction latter that year to disarm the Moro. These swords were collected as trophies & led to the orders that all confiscated weapons were to be destroyed. I imagine there may have been a few hustles amongst soldiers for where/how the weapon was collected in sales of these pieces. The 6th Calvary was very active in the South at this time & I would think if someone was in the 6th, access to a piece like this was high.
There is a big discrepancy to the amount of Moro killed in these conflicts. It didn't look good in the papers in the US & with a very lop sided casualty rate it would seem likely the military was looking to down play the Moro engagements/reports, at the same time securing hot spots.

Rick · 30th July 2008, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Penangsang, i am confused as to why you would say this. From everything we have seen in the past on these forums this kris is definitely a very solid, battle quality kris. It is consistent with the time period sited and the blade is of a better than average quality. I would not say, however, that the hilt is of datu quality, though this may well not be the original hilt. The asang-asang does look messed with and not quite in it's proper place. Whether or not it was "captured" remains to be seen, but there is certainly nothing touristy about it, or that rather lovely gugong with the silver fittings.

Perhaps there was a bamboo wedge to tighten the asang .

My Maranao has such wedges .

29th July 2008, 02:26 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	On the gunong, those are silver mounts on the scabbard with one thin one missing. On the bottom dagger, I have never seen one like that before, but the hilt I am now convinced is narra wood which has a red color that darkens over time. It is what I would call a northern okir engraving. The hands look familiar - perhaps a Katipunan sign of brotherhood? (would need to look up my info if I can find it). Again, I don't think the leather sheath goes with the knife, but is early and may belong to a Pampangan sword. All well preserved.

29th July 2008, 04:06 AM	#2
Reichsritter Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 26	"This weapon was taken from the hands of one of the most dreaded Momo (or Moro?) outlaws that ever was captured in Mindinao. His name was Monermdo (might be wrong-hard to read) and he had a large following of Momo (or Moro?)bandits. He with 16 of his band were killed by the 6th (section of note missing) near the Romain (?) River June 4th 1911" Probably "near Ramain", one of the 15 Sultanates created by the Maranaos in the 18th and 19th century.

30th July 2008, 04:40 AM	#4
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	here's my 0.02 cents..... I do not want to say this, but judging from your pictures alone, I dont think this is a "captured" blade. Similarly to the gunong. Yes, they both have some age, but IMHO, they both are of souvenir quality made for the outgoing soldiers. Hope others can prove me wrong....

30th July 2008, 08:41 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	IMHO this kris is a genuine piece crafted the traditonal Moro way (separate gangya, regular blade thickness, original hilt & pommel with silver bands, solid asang-asang (clamps), original anting-anting cloth); I'd guess that the blade is laminated. I think it dates around the turn of the 19th/20th century: Without collecting date I'd had estimated 1895-1930 and with the collecting date 1895-1905 seems reasonable. Such a complete piece with sound provenance is rare regardless of age. I agree that the workmanship (e. g. scroll work on both sides of the gangya, scabbard, etc) is not top-notch, especially not datu quality. However, I'd suggest that comparing kris crafted during the US occupation (BTW, I love how everone contesting US troops becomes a bandit or outlaw ) with mid-19th century (or older) kris is like comparing apples with oranges. Regards, Kai

30th July 2008, 08:44 AM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	BTW, I also think this is a good early gunong - get it to Steve and the laminations will make you a believer, I guess.

30th July 2008, 09:57 AM	#7
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Everything i've learned on this forum says that your gunong is a very nice older one. Maybe in the range of 1890-1920? Dating is so very difficult. But for sure it's a nice one, as is the kris. I have a couple that are similar. Oddly to me, most that I have with this very curvy blade are not laminated. Can't explain that. Possibly with such a small blade there was no need to mix the high and lower carbon steels? I don't know. The other dagger is a mystery to me. I haven't seen anything in that style before. But the quality is good, and it does seem to be Philippine. I would be prould to own any of these 3 pieces. Treasure them for their value as antique weapons, and for the fact that they belonged to your grandfather. If you want to see some pics of some of my gunong, they are at http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v1...Public/Gunong/ Steve

30th July 2008, 06:54 PM	#12
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	This is not a uncommon blade & from everything I know it's a Maranao fighting kris. I have two with similar hilts. The two I have are almost identical & are the same as the one in this post. IMO the blade is excellent, as well the file work, a standard that is lacking on newer swords. This blade is heavy & thicker then the normal kris. Something that makes me wonder if that was intentional considering the period. (less swings/more bang) 1911 is a interesting year. The conflicts were many & this would lead to Pershing giving the general instruction latter that year to disarm the Moro. These swords were collected as trophies & led to the orders that all confiscated weapons were to be destroyed. I imagine there may have been a few hustles amongst soldiers for where/how the weapon was collected in sales of these pieces. The 6th Calvary was very active in the South at this time & I would think if someone was in the 6th, access to a piece like this was high. There is a big discrepancy to the amount of Moro killed in these conflicts. It didn't look good in the papers in the US & with a very lop sided casualty rate it would seem likely the military was looking to down play the Moro engagements/reports, at the same time securing hot spots.