gaucho knives

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

Great post - Your differentiation between the Olavarriense school, and the Rioplantense school is raising this thread to the next level!

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

.I read the article about the facon here, The part of the buttons must be reworked. Argentineans also uses rounded buttons, but are different from the uruguayans. The description of the buttons can be made with precision to identify their origin without doubts, and there is another type of button, not mentioned, the riograndense button, from the region of Rio Grande (Great River).

Quoting from Domenech's Dagas de Plata pg79 (Apologies for my rough translation):

"The button can take a semi round form, known by collectors as round, little ball or oriental, and which define the blades used in Uruguay, Rio Grande do Sul (Brazil) and the mesopotamic zone of our country (CE: North East Argentina)... The "porteño" (CE: From Buenos Aires city) button is known as quadrangualr, though in reality it is more or less octagonal......although there is no definitive explanation that accounts for the different shapes adapted in the various regions"

Could you please throw a bit more light on the subject of buttons?

Abel Domenech
Dagas de Plata
privately edited by the author
Buenos Aires, Argentina, 2005

Mario López Osornio
Esgrima Criolla
Ediciones Nuevo Siglo (Biblioteca de la Cultura Argentina No. 9),
Buenos Aires, Argentina, 1995

I have them both and consider them essential reading for anyone seriously interested in this subject. Do you know of any other well regarded books?

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

First of all, I must excuse myself for my writting errors. In other post I worotte "whithe" instead of "white" and so on. The name of the schools are School of Olavarria and School of Rio de la Plata. You can refer to them as the olavarriense and rioplatense schools "ense" meaning "belonging to". As you know, Olavarria and Rio de la Plata are two places on Argentina. Those are "modern" schools, from the 19th Century, and are only related to the schools mentioned by Abel in some way. As I understand, and I´m not argentinean or a truly expert on this weapons, you can relate the rioplatense school to the old Pampa school mentioned by Abel, but only in relation with the sobriety of motifs, not in relation with their origin in the araucano or pampa motifs, which are indian. The schools mentioned by Abel are the old schools, but when coming to classify the above cuchillos criollos, which are modern, the old schools classification does not apply in the same form, as the motifs have been mixed in modern times. Anyway, the olavarriense school uses predominantly renaissance style motivs.

I meant the buttons paragraph needed reworking in the sense it needs more explanation. Your translation is correct, but it only touches very lightly the subject. For example, the uruguayan button is a round ball, but it has two symmetrical rounded rings in it´s sides at the same height of the ball, so it is really a rounded ball and not an octagonal piece. Some argentinean buttons are round, but with one ring, or with two rings but not symmetrical or rounded, with a flat spine. The specific uruguayan culture have been differenciating in more measure from the last half of the 19th C from the argentinean. Maybe the specific uruguayan button comes from this period, maybe not. It is a subject I must research.

The riograndese button has the rings and the "ball" in an octagonal form, but it can be also just a rounded ring (not a ball) between two flat (flat on their spines) rings, more narrow. Sometimes the main ring can be rounded on the spine, but oblong in the general form. There are many variations you must deal with, and so the classification must be detailed in a further direction. It would need somo more extense decription and illustration. This classification of the rings which I mention is related to the most modern puñales criollos, as I said, from the 19th C, and you must take on account that it is a live tradition in which the work on the buttons and silver motifs mixes elements and add new ones. If you see the book from Abel, you will find those variations.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

And yet another excellent post on the subject . Thanks from all of us here - We greatly appreciate your contribution.

Apart from Domenech, is there anybody else seriously researching these knives? I regularly read the posting on armasblancas.com, but so far, the best postings always come from Domenech. As an aside, did you read the one on San Martin's sabre?

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I meant the buttons paragraph needed reworking in the sense it needs more explanation. Your translation is correct, but it only touches very lightly the subject. .

Now, I understand you. At first I thought that you found fault with Jones statements about the buttons as an identifier, for which I apologize - Yes, there is much more to it, but this kind of detailed knowledge is very hard to access.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

I wrotte in the San Martín sabre thread. I´m Yataghan there. I only saw the thinny picture of the sabre, but a week latter, in other place, I saw a reproduction. It was made as a mameluke shamshir. The point of the hilt is VERY different from the one you can see on the unclear picture posted in the thread. Without good pictures, an authentic story and a metallurgical analysis made public, one can only make very wide (and wild) speculations.

It is not difficult to know the details of the buttons, if you speak spanish. Marcial, on that forum, knows very well the buttons, and also, you can communicate with Abel throught the forum. If you open a thread, I´m sure you will find several people who can add rich contributions. Some plateros (silversmiths) knows very well the schools and the type of buttons. There is a subfora there dedicated to the silversmithing. They make sheats and hilts just like the ones you see here, in this thread, and some of the silversmiths also have a good knowledge of the button styles. Marcial is a bladesmith, not a researcher, but he has made some research and knows very well the old and new criollo blades. I can give you my modest support to help you with your thread over there. Abel is semiretired from the forum because he´s in the last stages of the publication of his last book, about folder knives, but we can send him an invitation to participate. I don´t know any other serious research about this subject. In fact, I think I´m going to send him a message with a link to this thread.
My regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

When Chevalier first presented the query that is the topic of this thread, the knives of the Gauchos, the esoterica of the subject itself was intriguing. I was immediately drawn to try to find any material I could so I could respond. I began poring through resources and what notes I had available as usual to try to compose as responsible a response as possible, but found that trying to quickly put together a brief synopsis on these was much more formidable than I realized!

I noticed in checking through searches of previous discussions that Chris Evans clearly knows these weapons, and presented numerous outstandlingly detailed posts. Then Gonzalo's post revealed he too had excellent knowledge on these knives.The following posts by Mr.Maisey, Kronckew, Nagawarrior and Ferguson added beautiful examples to add to the great information and discussion that Chris and Gonzalo continue to develop.


I just wanted to say that this thread is 'textbook'!!!! That is exactly the kind of discussion and interaction I always look for here. A prefectly gentlemanly discourse with detailed and sound information presenting comprehensive material focused on a weapon form that will stand as a usable resource for collectors and future research.
It is fantastic because here not only is published material available on the topic noted, but the results of active research, field study and the experience of active collectors bring the entire topic 'up to speed'.

Gentlemen, please keep this thread going, its terrific to see this topic developing from an intriguing knife seldom discussed to that of an ethnographic utilitarian weapon that distinctly represents a colorful and fascinating history much more complex than I had ever realized. Fantastic!
Thank you very much!!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

On the contrary, thank you, Jim, for your words. I don´t dreserve them. Serious. I´m not what can be called a "specialist" in this subject. Abel is. And also a great collector of this kind of knives. The point of the schools, as you can expect, is a subject of discussions, but this is a normal part when comming to classify.
My best regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Jim,

Thank you for your generous praise of my modest contributions, but in truth, most of what I know of these knives comes from those two books and having seen their usage first hand during my travels in Sth America. In truth, it is very difficult to say much that is new on these knives with any certainty because what can be said has already been stated by Domenech and to a lesser extent Osornio, both sadly untranslated, and the rest is lost in the mists of time and intertwined with myths.

These knifves have gained a symbolic role in modern times, as have the Spanish navajas, both as national icons and reminder of a colorful past. As such, despite being obsolete, both have found a new lease of life. There are now superb artisans (see link), turning out pieces of previously undreamed of quality and ornateness. These masterpieces are rarely used, though it is common for well to do men to attend barbecues (Argentine Spanish: Asado) dressed in traditional garb, with a diminutive but very ornate knife tucked into their belt, but this is about as far as it goes.

And so, much of the arcane minutiae associated with these knives pertains to this modern breed. For example, according to Domenech, the Olavarria school of silver work for knives reached its full development in the 1925-40 period, an era by which the only gauchos to be found were in the theatres, not that any real gaucho could ever afford one.

From all of this, it can be seen that the indiscriminate association of these knives with gauchos is, to my mind at least, inappropriate, and a much better umbrella term is `Creole Knife' (Spanish: Cuchillo Criollo).

http://www.pallarols.com.ar/ Best seen in Spanish

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gonzalo,

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I wrotte in the San Martín sabre thread. I´m Yataghan there.

Not knowing that Yathanag is your good self, I was mightily impressed with your contributions to that thread. For the readers of this forum, the discussion in question was bout the sabre of the great Sth American General, Jose de San Martin, used during the wars of independence in the early decades of the 19th century. I should add that Gonzalo not only knows Creole knives, but also writes with an excellent command on the subjects of eastern swords, Wootz and Damascus steels.

I can give you my modest support to help you with your thread over there.

Thank you, but I have already corresponded with him briefly on a matter to do with a `Verijero' . And if I may boast a little, also have a copy of his Dagas de Plata with his handwritten dedication and autograph.

In fact, I think I´m going to send him a message with a link to this thread.

Now, if you could entice him to write something here, that would be truly wonderful.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Chris, thank you for your kind words. I agree with your statements about criollo knives. Tough it seems that the puñal criollo and the verijero, unornated, is still actually used by the country laboureers as a daily tool, but not the facones and dagas. Although I can´t be personally certain of this, those are references given by argentineans.

I asked Abel for an article for this forum about this subject, and he generously accepted my petition. I will be honored to be the conduct to upload it on the forum, as Abel is troubled now with his new book. It has to be noted, also, that the situation in Argentina is very difficult right now, with social and political conflict reaching a new peak. There are clouds of serious violence over there, and many are afraid of a civil conflict of great proportions.

My regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Chris, thank you for your kind words. I agree with your statements about criollo knives. Tough it seems that the puñal criollo and the verijero, unornated, is still actually used by the country laboureers as a daily tool, but not the facones and dagas. Although I can´t be personally certain of this, those are references given by argentineans.

You are absolutely right, and even 50yrs ago this was the case. However, if we substitute plain wooden or plastic handles for the ornate silver ones, we end up with common kitchen/butcher knives, perfectly suited to work on an cattle `estancia', albeit with a hint of a false edge and worn in a sheath. Save festive occasions, during my travels, I never saw a `campesino' (man of the land) would be gaucho with anything other than one of these, except in the far north, where machetes are used a fair bit.

Of course, on national holidays and Día de la Tradición (a day honouring the old ways) there are endless parades all over the country of decked out campesinos with ornate puñals and facons, furnished with cheap German silver, worn in the traditional manner, all this overseen by the local `estancia' owners and sundry dignitaries similarly decked out, but with far more upmarket knives and tailor made costumes . Once the holiday is over, all this apparel goes back into the cupboard.

Even Domenech, in one of his books, concedes that nowadays, with the ornate Creole knife the blade is secondary to its appearance, so this tells us what it is all about.

I asked Abel for an article for this forum about this subject, and he generously accepted my petition.

Great news, and allow me to thank you on behalf of all of us. It will make an extremely valuable contribution to this most interesting variety of knives.

Cheers
Chris
PS Sent you a PM

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

It was made as a mameluke shamshir.

Well, it would be more properly called "kiliç", as this is the word used by the mamluks.

Gonzalo