Maranao Sundang

[nacho]

I'm a beginner at this but I study very hard (which means I try to read everything you guys say about moro swords in this forum). I find the discussion on how old kris blade metal should look like, rather interesting. I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.

[Rick]

I know that the collection of Col. Harold Bandholtz was shown at the 1904 exposition .
Is this a different one ?

Have any of these blades etc. of this collection been repatriated to the Philippine Peoples in the past ?

I have a pair of the spears from that collection and they have a dark finish that shows the watering of the steel slightly .

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Rick

I know that the collection of Col. Harold Bandholtz was shown at the 1904 exposition .
Is this a different one ?

Have any of these blades etc. of this collection been repatriated to the Philippine Peoples in the past ?

I have a pair of the spears from that collection and they have a dark finish that shows the watering of the steel slightly .

for the life of me, i can't remember who told me this, but yeah, it's possible that the weapons on display might be bandholtz's. reason i said that, i was told that his descendants returned half (!) of his collection to the Philippine Govt not too long ago.
as far as polished and new looking blades, i wouldn't doubt that at all; here are some examples that was brought over by an american officer in 1900, and was literally frozen in time since once it got here, it was stored (pics taken by me):






oh, and wassup fellas?

[nacho]

Yes, that's exactly how many of the blades in the exhibit looked like -- polished blades like stainless steel. I guess they must been polished to make them look nice for the exposition and then kept all these years. That's why they look that way.

I also collect ivory santos and we know that 100 year-old ivory kept inside a glass virina can look new and without the yellowing we call patina. I guess for 100 year-old kris pommels, the same thing can be expected. Meaning they can look new if kept/stored all these years.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by nacho

Yes, that's exactly how many of the blades in the exhibit looked like -- polished blades like stainless steel. I guess they must been polished to make them look nice for the exposition and then kept all these years. That's why they look that way.

I also collect ivory santos and we know that 100 year-old ivory kept inside a glass virina can look new and without the yellowing we call patina. I guess for 100 year-old kris pommels, the same thing can be expected. Meaning they can look new if kept/stored all these years.

nacho,
not necessary polished, but rather it looked like that to begin with. reason i said that is because the same krises i posted above, there were pictures taken of the same swords by the original collector before it left the philippines, and it looked exactly the same, without any hint of being etched. here are some other ones. notice how shiny the one third from the top is:

wow, i would live to see that collection! i only saw the same five or six that was displayed in the old museum.
nacho, if you can take some pics and post it here, it would be most appreciated. i did try to take pics of the ones in the old museum but i wasn't allowed, lol..

[P.Abrera]

Originally Posted by nacho

Yes, that's exactly how many of the blades in the exhibit looked like -- polished blades like stainless steel. I guess they must been polished to make them look nice for the exposition and then kept all these years. That's why they look that way.

I also collect ivory santos and we know that 100 year-old ivory kept inside a glass virina can look new and without the yellowing we call patina. I guess for 100 year-old kris pommels, the same thing can be expected. Meaning they can look new if kept/stored all these years.

Thanks for the heads-up on the exhibit. It is indeed a mix of the St. Luis Expo as well as some items already part of the museums collection. As it turns out it wont be open to the public for a while yet but can be viewed with appointment.

It's the most extensive local exhibit I've seen, unfortunately, almost all the moro weapons have had an over-enthusiastic cleaning. On some all patina has been removed in the quest to reveal bright metal. And all that have been cleaned bear evidence of having been cleaned with (gasp) a course grit belt grinder/sander. They could all have done with a bit more tlc than they recieved. I'm sure quite a few of them lost a touch of grace from their profiles from the less than delicate cleaning. A couple are also displayed with their handles on backwards and many are now missing asang-asang and handle crests, surely stripped from the swords long ago for the precious metals and ivory. A couple of the budjak spears appear to have once been "painted" silver as well. Thankfully there are only traces of the paint left now. It would be nice if the museum was open to some tips on how to better care and display their collection. Some ren wax should have been all that was done to the pieces. The visayan swords are in much better shape (and are of a good cross section of the vast variety) and there are a couple of unusual pieces there. Certainly worth the trip.

But yes, to answer your question, I am certain all but a couple of blades in the moro collection there would display a piled or laminated blade construction from non-homogenous steels given a proper cleaning and etch.

[Nonoy Tan]

The exhibit of the 1904 specimens at the Phil National Museum has been taking some time to open. For some reason, prep work has been quite show. I learned about it a year ago and thereafter visited in Oct 2007 to chekout the on-and-off prep work. Noticed some errors in the display (e.g. inverted Tinggian shield, etc.) and humbly pointed it out to the staff who were glad to correct them. Indeed, the exhibit would be something worth visiting. By the way, I've been given the opportunity by the museum curator to photograph and document the weapons in the museum inventory and hope to be able to share (publish) these for everyone in the future. Meanwhile, I've been preparing to complete an appropriate photo studio/equipment set-up for this purpose

[Nonoy Tan]

I forgot to mention ...

Paolo, I am optimistic that we in the private sector can do a lot to support the Phil National Museum (PNM) , especially in the area of inventory management, preservation and storage. A parallel goal I had in mind was to provide PNM the digitial images of its weapons inventory, which the institution can use for their electronic database. This is pro-bono work. As you could imagine, there are many other areas where we can help. We can probably work with the other museum volunteers to ren wax those blades I'll be the first one to donate 2 liters.

[salaghati]

Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

I forgot to mention ...

Paolo, I am optimistic that we in the private sector can do a lot to support the Phil National Museum (PNM) , especially in the area of inventory management, preservation and storage. A parallel goal I had in mind was to provide PNM the digitial images of its weapons inventory, which the institution can use for their electronic database. This is pro-bono work. As you could imagine, there are many other areas where we can help. We can probably work with the other museum volunteers to ren wax those blades I'll be the first one to donate 2 liters.

That's a good idea Nonoy.

[Rick]

I'm very glad to hear that at least half of the Bandholtz collection found its way home .

[P.Abrera]

Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

I forgot to mention ...

Paolo, I am optimistic that we in the private sector can do a lot to support the Phil National Museum (PNM) , especially in the area of inventory management, preservation and storage. A parallel goal I had in mind was to provide PNM the digitial images of its weapons inventory, which the institution can use for their electronic database. This is pro-bono work. As you could imagine, there are many other areas where we can help. We can probably work with the other museum volunteers to ren wax those blades I'll be the first one to donate 2 liters.

Agreed. There is quite a bit of work to be done. Good to know there are others interested in doing this kind of thing. The museum could use a a hand with adding some information to the displays, i'm not the "expert" to do it, but the information found in this forum alone could really take the exhibit up a few notches.

[nacho]

There is also an on-going exhibit at the Yuchenco Museum on "SULU". 5 Moro armors, several lantakas and maybe 15 moro swords (all with ivory pommels). The brass armor with arabic inscriptions, which is the subject of one of the threads, is on display.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by nacho

There is also an on-going exhibit at the Yuchenco Museum on "SULU". 5 Moro armors, several lantakas and maybe 15 moro swords (all with ivory pommels). The brass armor with arabic inscriptions, which is the subject of one of the threads, is on display.

Wonderful! I would love to see this exhibit.

The Moro armor with the inscription is copper, not brass. I have held the piece.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

for the life of me, i can't remember who told me this, but yeah, it's possible that the weapons on display might be bandholtz's. reason i said that, i was told that his descendants returned half (!) of his collection to the Philippine Govt not too long ago.
as far as polished and new looking blades, i wouldn't doubt that at all; here are some examples that was brought over by an american officer in 1900, and was literally frozen in time since once it got here, it was stored (pics taken by me):






oh, and wassup fellas?

Bertha soon Ron .
Maybe a run East is in order .

The middle kris you show pretty much throws out the pointy luks being a recent development theory .

Rick

[Battara]

Rick you make a good point, though most of the pointy luk ones I have seen were later. That is why other things must be taken into account in determining age as well which I see on this piece. One attribute alone is not enough of course.

Nonoy I look forward to more pictures.

[Bill M]

Here is a pretty good slightly pointy luk, overcleaned by a previous owner.

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

as far as polished and new looking blades, i wouldn't doubt that at all; here are some examples that was brought over by an american officer in 1900, and was literally frozen in time since once it got here, it was stored (pics taken by me):

Perhaps some of you more learned Moro collectors can clear something up for me. Do we really know that it was the custom to etch and darken kris blades back in the day or is this just a more modern "tradition" started by collectors who wanted to see the laminated patterns in their kris? I keep trying to find old photos of Moros with there weapons out so i can see for myself, but i have not come across any that clearly show this. Spunjer shows us these examples which are supposedly untouched since their collection in 1900 and these blades are shiny. Anyone have any photos that can prove Moros darkened their blades? Anyone have any old (or even new) written evidence? Just wondering.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps some of you more learned Moro collectors can clear something up for me. Do we really know that it was the custom to etch and darken kris blades back in the day or is this just a more modern "tradition" started by collectors who wanted to see the laminated patterns in their kris? I keep trying to find old photos of Moros with there weapons out so i can see for myself, but i have not come across any that clearly show this. Spunjer shows us these examples which are supposedly untouched since their collection in 1900 and these blades are shiny. Anyone have any photos that can prove Moros darkened their blades? Anyone have any old (or even new) written evidence? Just wondering.

In Crossing Sulu Seas , Cecil's video they show the pattern being brought out in a Barong with lime juice after forging .

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

In Crossing Sulu Seas , Cecil's video they show the pattern being brought out in a Barong with lime juice after forging .

Yes. i remember that, but what year was that film made. I am wondering more about 19th century kris and before.
To make an Indo keris comparison, it would appear that from examining Javanese keris that were collected in the first encounters with the Dutch that these keris were polished in a similar way to what we might know as a Balinese style. At some point this tradition changed in Jawa and the deeper etched look came into style. So, does this segment in Sulu Seas really give us any solid evidence that earlier Moros also darkened their blades?

[Rick]

Here's a pic of a Kampilan blade with a stable untouched patina .

As an observation; I would think that mirror bright blades would be a detriment in ambush and stealth type combat .

[kai]

Hello David,

Thanks for bringing this up.

I keep trying to find old photos of Moros with there weapons out so i can see for myself, but i have not come across any that clearly show this.

Yes, I also would like to see some photographic evidence from the late 19th or early 20th century. I'm not keeping my breath though since (light) staining of blades is hard enough to photograph nowadays and obviously much less likely to get picked up accidentally with antique photography equipment.

Spunjer shows us these examples which are supposedly untouched since their collection in 1900 and these blades are shiny.

I don't think these qualify as evidence. Maybe these blades were not touched once they reached the US collection/museum. However, there was plenty of time to "clean up" the blades on the voyage back home. An officer had enough bored soldiers at hand to set up a cleaning party...

Your best bet would be to locate ethnographic collections which were acquired while the old kris tradition was still alive and where the collecting of weapons as well as other artifacts was done by scientists rather than by military officers. I doubt wether the early (pre-Span.-Am. war) US expeditions to the Philippines would qualify - maybe someone can elucidate how they were organized and carried out?

To make an Indo keris comparison, it would appear that from examining Javanese keris that were collected in the first encounters with the Dutch that these keris were polished in a similar way to what we might know as a Balinese style. At some point this tradition changed in Jawa and the deeper etched look came into style.

The northern keris are often only etched rather than stained with warangan. Thus, all keris were routinely etched (and often stained). IMHO this makes it pretty likely that kris (keris sundang) were traditionally etched, too.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

Yes, I also would like to see some photographic evidence from the late 19th or early 20th century. I'm not keeping my breath though since (light) staining of blades is hard enough to photograph nowadays and obviously much less likely to get picked up accidentally with antique photography equipment.

I wouldn't expect to be able to clearly see a pattern, but photo equiptment from the turn of the century was certainly advanced enough to be able to see if the blade was shiny or darkened. It would all depend on if the photograph was a reasonable distance from a drawn blade

Originally Posted by kai

The northern keris are often only etched rather than stained with warangan. Thus, all keris were routinely etched (and often stained). IMHO this makes it pretty likely that kris (keris sundang) were traditionally etched, too.

I not only follow your logic, but tend to agree with it. I am not necessarily presenting the argument that blades weren't etched, just looking for evidence of it.
My point about Javanese keris once receiving a Balinese style polish with it's etching was only to show that traditions can change over the years. It would be nice if we could determine with some certainty if etching blades dark was indeed always the tradition.

[Battara]

I will make a note - even if the blades were originally etched (and I think they were like most of those in Indonesia) many may not have been kept that way all the time, especially battle field pieces, but occasionally.

Then as time passes, the etching/staining may not stay for long due to oxidation or soft abrasion in the scabbards. I have noticed this on Indonesian pieces. My Balinese keris blade, for example, was once black and silver, but 200 years later is grey-blue and silver. In some of the museums, I have seen junggayan kris that showed the pattern welding - and the museums do not have the understanding or time to etch/stain!

However, I do know that subsequent owners who brought them over to the US did as a custom of the day did polish/clean blades - PI/Moro/US Civil War/etc - and made them shiny......

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello David,







I don't think these qualify as evidence. Maybe these blades were not touched once they reached the US collection/museum. However, there was plenty of time to "clean up" the blades on the voyage back home. An officer had enough bored soldiers at hand to set up a cleaning party...






Regards,
Kai

i don't see why they shouldn't. it was given to the officer by different datus knowing he was an avid collector. and these were boxed up before leaving p.i. btw, major conflict in mindanao didn't start until 1902 so you could say these were acquired during "peace time"...

check out datu banquie's (sp) kris. i realize it's not close up, but it seems to be the dude's like, "check this shiny kris i got..."

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i don't see why they shouldn't. it was given to the officer by different datus knowing he was an avid collector. and these were boxed up before leaving p.i. btw, major conflict in mindanao didn't start until 1902 so you could say these were acquired during "peace time"...

check out datu banquie's (sp) kris. i realize it's not close up, but it seems to be the dude's like, "check this shiny kris i got..."

Actually I think the picture was over exposed, so I lowered the exposure and below is the result. Notice that the baka baka are shiny and lighter in color than the blade....

[P.Abrera]

Originally Posted by nacho

I'm a beginner at this but I study very hard (which means I try to read everything you guys say about moro swords in this forum). I find the discussion on how old kris blade metal should look like, rather interesting. I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.

Is this a new exhibit/display? I've not seen more than 5 or 6 of kris and barung that are part of the permanent displays at the Nat'l Museum in Manila?

[nacho]

The exhibit is new. It is in the groundfloor of the new Museum (the former Finance Building). There are over a hundred swords (moro, visayan, Luzon), dozens of spears, one round moro shield, bagobo shields, hats, Igorot weapons, war drums, and many more.

When we went there last week the doors of the exhibit room were closed as they were still fixing up part of it. However, we begged an officer of the museum to let us in -- which they graciously did.

They said the exhibit was open two/three months ago. But they want to fix the way they did the displays because right now visitors can reach in and touch the swords (there is glass partition but open on top) -- "and many do".

There is a smaller exhibit of weapons in the old museum building. That's the one with about 5 or 6 kris/barongs.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by nacho

I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.

I suspect that many of these were sent back to the PI from vets here in the US and there was a custom back in the late 1800s to the mid 1900s of polishing up blades from any country to make them shiny. Many Nepalese kora were ruined this way by Victorians polishing out blade engravings. In the US collectors would do the same to PI/Moro pieces and even US Civil War swords. They would even throw away the scabbards of Moro and US Civil War pieces.

This is probably why you see so many shiny blades there in the museum. Also, once captured, the vets did not know to keep the blades in etched condition (if they werent polished),

[asomotif]

this is the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector.

Ps. where are these tourist shops ? I like to shop around there.
Do they have dayak items as well