BANGKINANG & BAHARI kerises?

[rasdan]

Hi Ganjawulung,

I never seen the blades, even if I had seen them i can't tell the origin. Sorry.. The last two i think are Malay sundangs. There's an old photo somewhere in this forum posted by Mr. VVV (if i'm not mistaken) showing the Sultan of Perak with his followers. One of them is holding a Sundang.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by rasdan

I never seen the blades, even if I had seen them i can't tell the origin. Sorry.. The last two i think are Malay sundangs. There's an old photo somewhere in this forum posted by Mr. VVV (if i'm not mistaken) showing the Sultan of Perak with his followers. One of them is holding a Sundang.

Thank you, Rasdan, for the useful information. Is there any significant difference, between Malay sundangs and Filipino sundangs?

Originally Posted by kai

Here's a pic of a pesi which seems to be unaltered and is only about half the length you give. (I'm going to post the exact measurements later.)

I may have seen a dozen other pesi of this keris type but all had unspectacular sizes. Any pic of those (partially) flattened pesi would be great, too!

(Additional info for Kai and Amuk) the supposed to be a "bangkinang" I've shown before, has a pesi/tang's size of 6,5 cm long, round but bigger than normal. But the supposed to be "bahari" keris, is quite much longer -- 7,8 cm but smaller than the "bangkinang". Here are the pics...

[David]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Thank you, Rasdan, for the useful information. Is there any significant difference, between Malay sundangs and Filipino sundangs?

Just a technicality, but i believe that the word "sundang" is not specific to keris in the Philippines. It is a word used to describe many different swords. It seems that kris or kalis are more specific.

[kai]

Hello Ganja,

Is there any significant difference, between Malay sundangs and Filipino sundangs?

The scabbards are definitely Malay. Malayan keris sundang often have blades which seem to originate from Moro smiths; those of local Malay manufacture often have distinct features.

the supposed to be a "bangkinang" I've shown before, has a pesi/tang's size of 6,5 cm long, round but bigger than normal.

Yeah, that looks like what I'm used to.

BTW, my piece has a pesi length of 6.0 cm (2.36") and a blade (without pesi) of 51.4 cm (20.24").

But the supposed to be "bahari" keris, is quite much longer -- 7,8 cm but smaller than the "bangkinang".

Thanks for the pics. I have to admit that this one looks odd to me: It's certainly not a regular keris bahari and I suppose it's not from Sumatra nor Malaya. I know that Alan has quite a few distinct examples - maybe he can comment on Javanese styles?

BTW, are you sure, this is an old blade? For the time being, I even wouldn't want to exclude a recent Madurese origin...

Regards,
Kai

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by kai

... Thanks for the pics. I have to admit that this one looks odd to me: It's certainly not a regular keris bahari and I suppose it's not from Sumatra nor Malaya.

BTW, are you sure, this is an old blade? For the time being, I even wouldn't want to exclude a recent Madurese origin...

Regards,
Kai

My opinion is with Kai on the piece with the longer pesi. The base area (sor-soran) seems suspicious.

[rasdan]

Hi Ganjawulung,

Sorry for the late reply. I have quite limited internet access at the moment. IMHO the main difference is the "bangun" of the blade. Its hard to explain in words actually..

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by kai

Thanks for the pics. I have to admit that this one looks odd to me: It's certainly not a regular keris bahari and I suppose it's not from Sumatra nor Malaya. I know that Alan has quite a few distinct examples - maybe he can comment on Javanese styles?

BTW, are you sure, this is an old blade? For the time being, I even wouldn't want to exclude a recent Madurese origin...

Yes, Kai, quite sure it is not a recent one (from grasping the metal blade). Nor madurese origin. (I hope Ki Jayamalelo could comment on this blade. He has seen this blade when we met in Jakarta last Sunday... couldn't he?)

This more close up picture on the base of the blade...

[Newsteel]

Ganjawulung,

I would categorized both kerises posted above as Keris Panjang. Basically it is the form and length that makes it such. You may have heard about keris panjang, anak alang and bahari. Typically most, infact 90% of this were found throughout Sumatra (Riau, Bangkinang, Palembang, Padang, Jambi, etc) and the Malay Peninsular (Malaysia). How can we differentiate the keris from which part/region is another question.

Keris bahari refers to the same form (dapur?) but normally less than 12 inches long. Length of 12-16 inches would be anak alang, and longer than 16 inches can be called a keris panjang. This is just my roughly guide.

[Newsteel]

I thought that your keris panjang with kembang kacang is rather 'unusual'. I have seen many but obviously not all. Typically an old 18th - 19th century straight panjang (panjang lurus) would have no kembang kacang. Only keris panjang with luks (very very rare) would have kembang kacang.

The other panjang (with that 'inverted comma at the gandik) is more common. This inverted comma like is typical found in Minang and Palembang keris - bahari and panjang.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Newsteel

...Typically most, infact 90% of this were found throughout Sumatra (Riau, Bangkinang, Palembang, Padang, Jambi, etc) and the Malay Peninsular (Malaysia).

Thanks a lot, Newsteel for the valuable information on "keris panjang". And I think, it is interesting too to know more about Bangkinang. I found some interesting notes on Bangkinang in the past.

Bangkinang now, is only a sub-district in Riau Province, Sumatera (Indonesia). But in mid 16th to the end of 19th century -- according to a note -- Bangkinang was popular because of their spesific kerises. This model of kerises then had been imitated by keris makers in Bangka island, Belitung and the neighboring Kampar area. The form of kerises in these areas, was told quite similar. But the size of unique Bangkinang kerises, were the longest -- about 49cm to 68 cm. The form of warangka -- the upper part of the sheath -- was similar to keris sheath from Islamic state of Demak (Central Java) in the 16th century. Half moon curve, or "wulan tumanggal" (compare with the similar name but in different language in Malay, "dua hari bulan" sheath).

In history of Sumatera, Bangkinang was an old but important town. After the fall of Sriwijaya empire (around Palembang now), Bangkinang developped as an important transit place for traders from Sumatera Barat (West Sumatera), especially from Pagaruyung to Pekanbaru and to the east coast of Sumatera. It was told, that these West Sumatera traders, they brought and sold kerises from Bangkinang to Riau Island and even to Malay Peninsula...

It still needs more scientific research on this, and more research on historical sites as Candi (Temple) Muara Takus, and also old inscriptions (prasasti) in Batu Basurai, near Bangkinang to unveil the mystery of "keris panjang" origin...

[rahman]

In history of Sumatera, Bangkinang was an old but important town. After the fall of Sriwijaya empire (around Palembang now), Bangkinang developped as an important transit place for traders from Sumatera Barat (West Sumatera), especially from Pagaruyung to Pekanbaru and to the east coast of Sumatera. It was told, that these West Sumatera traders, they brought and sold kerises from Bangkinang to Riau Island and even to Malay Peninsula...

It still needs more scientific research on this, and more research on historical sites as Candi (Temple) Muara Takus, and also old inscriptions (prasasti) in Batu Basurai, near Bangkinang to unveil the mystery of "keris panjang" origin...

This is quite consistent with what the late Pak Bambang said of Bangkinang in his Ensiklopedi Keris. Of the temples/candis, a google search on Bangkinang can yield some info. Indeed, Bangkinang remained an important transit point between East and West Sumatra today as it was in the 16th Century.

Pak Bambang also credited the popularity of the Keris Bahari to its small size, which makes it easy to conceal.

The spread of the Keris Panjang throughout the Malay areas, as explained earlier, is only one wave. We have to also credit the Minangs who migrated to the Malay Peninsula and establshed the state of Negri Sembilan. Indeed, the keris panjang figures highly here as symbols of authority. According to researchers of Malay keris, the keris panjang is used as a keris penyalang (execution weapon) by the headmen and tribal leaders because only the Sultan has the power to order execution by beheading.

It is interesting that in the Perak royal regalia mentioned earlier, most of the keris panjang are named 'Orang Kaya', a title given to Malay noblemen.

What's the difference between a Sumatran and Malay keris panjang, or indeed of the anak alang and bahari? After looking over a few, I conclude it's in the presence or absence of the 'inverted comma'. The Malay blades have no punctuation mark

FYI ... Bangkinang has strong links with the peninsula: e.g. the sultan of Melaka sought sanctuary there when he fled from the Portuguese; Datuk Bahaman/Seman Tanah of Pahang was of Bangkinang blood. Maybe more info can be gleaned from these areas.

I hesitate on this comment by Amuk though. The Sultan of Malacca retreated to Johor after the Portugese invasion of 1511 and set up a sultanate that lasted until 1699 in the Johor Lama/Kota Tinggi area. I have no info on Datuk Bahaman.


Just my dua sen worth.