BANGKINANG & BAHARI kerises?

Amuk Murugul · 27th June 2008, 11:40 AM

Hullo everybody,

Firstly, I am sorry for making a mistake earlier on. What I meant was that the hilt is 12-13 cm.The tang would be about 10 cm.
BTW... the hilt was traditionally curved and conical, tapering toward the nggania (base of blade); variations such as Tapak Koeda etc. was influenced by this keris' popularity in other regions.

I must say again that the Bangkinang was not developed to COMBAT the rapier; rather, it was as the result of the locals being impressed by the rapier i.e. their adaptation of it.

The Bangkinang would not have been used in the same way as a rapier. It would have been a mainly stabbing/thrusting weapon ( similar to the Soenda Pedang Tewek, which in turn was similar to a rapier, with a very slender blade but slightly curved toward its sharp inner edge).

FYI ... Bangkinang has strong links with the peninsula: e.g. the sultan of Melaka sought sanctuary there when he fled from the Portuguese; Datuk Bahaman/Seman Tanah of Pahang was of Bangkinang blood. Maybe more info can be gleaned from these areas.

Earlier I said I was suspicious about the shorter blade. It reminds me of the long straight keris from the Tengger, Eastern Java area (whose form has been extant since the 12th. - 13th. century and which also has a spine along the middle of the blade).

I'm sorry I can't be of further help.

Best.

rasdan · 27th June 2008, 07:16 PM

Hi Ganjawulung,

I never seen the blades, even if I had seen them i can't tell the origin. Sorry.. The last two i think are Malay sundangs. There's an old photo somewhere in this forum posted by Mr. VVV (if i'm not mistaken) showing the Sultan of Perak with his followers. One of them is holding a Sundang.

ganjawulung · 28th June 2008, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

I never seen the blades, even if I had seen them i can't tell the origin. Sorry.. The last two i think are Malay sundangs. There's an old photo somewhere in this forum posted by Mr. VVV (if i'm not mistaken) showing the Sultan of Perak with his followers. One of them is holding a Sundang.

Thank you, Rasdan, for the useful information. Is there any significant difference, between Malay sundangs and Filipino sundangs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Here's a pic of a pesi which seems to be unaltered and is only about half the length you give. (I'm going to post the exact measurements later.)

I may have seen a dozen other pesi of this keris type but all had unspectacular sizes. Any pic of those (partially) flattened pesi would be great, too!

(Additional info for Kai and Amuk) the supposed to be a "bangkinang" I've shown before, has a pesi/tang's size of 6,5 cm long, round but bigger than normal. But the supposed to be "bahari" keris, is quite much longer -- 7,8 cm but smaller than the "bangkinang". Here are the pics...

David · 28th June 2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Thank you, Rasdan, for the useful information. Is there any significant difference, between Malay sundangs and Filipino sundangs?

Just a technicality, but i believe that the word "sundang" is not specific to keris in the Philippines. It is a word used to describe many different swords. It seems that kris or kalis are more specific.

kai · 29th June 2008, 12:23 AM

Hello Ganja,

Quote:

Is there any significant difference, between Malay sundangs and Filipino sundangs?

The scabbards are definitely Malay. Malayan keris sundang often have blades which seem to originate from Moro smiths; those of local Malay manufacture often have distinct features.

Quote:

the supposed to be a "bangkinang" I've shown before, has a pesi/tang's size of 6,5 cm long, round but bigger than normal.

Yeah, that looks like what I'm used to.

BTW, my piece has a pesi length of 6.0 cm (2.36") and a blade (without pesi) of 51.4 cm (20.24").

Quote:

But the supposed to be "bahari" keris, is quite much longer -- 7,8 cm but smaller than the "bangkinang".

Thanks for the pics. I have to admit that this one looks odd to me: It's certainly not a regular keris bahari and I suppose it's not from Sumatra nor Malaya. I know that Alan has quite a few distinct examples - maybe he can comment on Javanese styles?

BTW, are you sure, this is an old blade? For the time being, I even wouldn't want to exclude a recent Madurese origin...

Regards,
Kai

Alam Shah · 29th June 2008, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

... Thanks for the pics. I have to admit that this one looks odd to me: It's certainly not a regular keris bahari and I suppose it's not from Sumatra nor Malaya.

BTW, are you sure, this is an old blade? For the time being, I even wouldn't want to exclude a recent Madurese origin...

Regards,
Kai

My opinion is with Kai on the piece with the longer pesi. The base area (sor-soran) seems suspicious.

rasdan · 1st July 2008, 06:29 AM

Hi Ganjawulung,

Sorry for the late reply. I have quite limited internet access at the moment. IMHO the main difference is the "bangun" of the blade. Its hard to explain in words actually..

ganjawulung · 1st July 2008, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Thanks for the pics. I have to admit that this one looks odd to me: It's certainly not a regular keris bahari and I suppose it's not from Sumatra nor Malaya. I know that Alan has quite a few distinct examples - maybe he can comment on Javanese styles?

BTW, are you sure, this is an old blade? For the time being, I even wouldn't want to exclude a recent Madurese origin...

Yes, Kai, quite sure it is not a recent one (from grasping the metal blade). Nor madurese origin. (I hope Ki Jayamalelo could comment on this blade. He has seen this blade when we met in Jakarta last Sunday... couldn't he?)

This more close up picture on the base of the blade...

Newsteel · 1st July 2008, 09:44 AM

Ganjawulung,

I would categorized both kerises posted above as Keris Panjang. Basically it is the form and length that makes it such. You may have heard about keris panjang, anak alang and bahari. Typically most, infact 90% of this were found throughout Sumatra (Riau, Bangkinang, Palembang, Padang, Jambi, etc) and the Malay Peninsular (Malaysia). How can we differentiate the keris from which part/region is another question.

Keris bahari refers to the same form (dapur?) but normally less than 12 inches long. Length of 12-16 inches would be anak alang, and longer than 16 inches can be called a keris panjang. This is just my roughly guide.

Newsteel · 1st July 2008, 09:55 AM

I thought that your keris panjang with kembang kacang is rather 'unusual'. I have seen many but obviously not all. Typically an old 18th - 19th century straight panjang (panjang lurus) would have no kembang kacang. Only keris panjang with luks (very very rare) would have kembang kacang.

The other panjang (with that 'inverted comma at the gandik) is more common. This inverted comma like is typical found in Minang and Palembang keris - bahari and panjang.

ganjawulung · 1st July 2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newsteel

...Typically most, infact 90% of this were found throughout Sumatra (Riau, Bangkinang, Palembang, Padang, Jambi, etc) and the Malay Peninsular (Malaysia).

Thanks a lot, Newsteel for the valuable information on "keris panjang". And I think, it is interesting too to know more about Bangkinang. I found some interesting notes on Bangkinang in the past.

Bangkinang now, is only a sub-district in Riau Province, Sumatera (Indonesia). But in mid 16th to the end of 19th century -- according to a note -- Bangkinang was popular because of their spesific kerises. This model of kerises then had been imitated by keris makers in Bangka island, Belitung and the neighboring Kampar area. The form of kerises in these areas, was told quite similar. But the size of unique Bangkinang kerises, were the longest -- about 49cm to 68 cm. The form of warangka -- the upper part of the sheath -- was similar to keris sheath from Islamic state of Demak (Central Java) in the 16th century. Half moon curve, or "wulan tumanggal" (compare with the similar name but in different language in Malay, "dua hari bulan" sheath).

In history of Sumatera, Bangkinang was an old but important town. After the fall of Sriwijaya empire (around Palembang now), Bangkinang developped as an important transit place for traders from Sumatera Barat (West Sumatera), especially from Pagaruyung to Pekanbaru and to the east coast of Sumatera. It was told, that these West Sumatera traders, they brought and sold kerises from Bangkinang to Riau Island and even to Malay Peninsula...

It still needs more scientific research on this, and more research on historical sites as Candi (Temple) Muara Takus, and also old inscriptions (prasasti) in Batu Basurai, near Bangkinang to unveil the mystery of "keris panjang" origin...

kai · 28th June 2008, 12:20 AM

Hello Amuk,

Thanks for your contributions!

Quote:

The tang would be about 10 cm.

Are you sure?

Here's a pic of a pesi which seems to be unaltered and is only about half the length you give. (I'm going to post the exact measurements later.)

I may have seen a dozen other pesi of this keris type but all had unspectacular sizes. Any pic of those (partially) flattened pesi would be great, too!

Regards,
Kai

1st July 2008, 09:55 AM	#10
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	I thought that your keris panjang with kembang kacang is rather 'unusual'. I have seen many but obviously not all. Typically an old 18th - 19th century straight panjang (panjang lurus) would have no kembang kacang. Only keris panjang with luks (very very rare) would have kembang kacang. The other panjang (with that 'inverted comma at the gandik) is more common. This inverted comma like is typical found in Minang and Palembang keris - bahari and panjang. Last edited by Newsteel; 1st July 2008 at 10:07 AM.

27th June 2008, 11:40 AM	#1
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 473	Hullo everybody, Firstly, I am sorry for making a mistake earlier on. What I meant was that the hilt is 12-13 cm.The tang would be about 10 cm. BTW... the hilt was traditionally curved and conical, tapering toward the nggania (base of blade); variations such as Tapak Koeda etc. was influenced by this keris' popularity in other regions. I must say again that the Bangkinang was not developed to COMBAT the rapier; rather, it was as the result of the locals being impressed by the rapier i.e. their adaptation of it. The Bangkinang would not have been used in the same way as a rapier. It would have been a mainly stabbing/thrusting weapon ( similar to the Soenda Pedang Tewek, which in turn was similar to a rapier, with a very slender blade but slightly curved toward its sharp inner edge). FYI ... Bangkinang has strong links with the peninsula: e.g. the sultan of Melaka sought sanctuary there when he fled from the Portuguese; Datuk Bahaman/Seman Tanah of Pahang was of Bangkinang blood. Maybe more info can be gleaned from these areas. Earlier I said I was suspicious about the shorter blade. It reminds me of the long straight keris from the Tengger, Eastern Java area (whose form has been extant since the 12th. - 13th. century and which also has a spine along the middle of the blade). I'm sorry I can't be of further help. Best.

27th June 2008, 07:16 PM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi Ganjawulung, I never seen the blades, even if I had seen them i can't tell the origin. Sorry.. The last two i think are Malay sundangs. There's an old photo somewhere in this forum posted by Mr. VVV (if i'm not mistaken) showing the Sultan of Perak with his followers. One of them is holding a Sundang.

1st July 2008, 06:29 AM	#7
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi Ganjawulung, Sorry for the late reply. I have quite limited internet access at the moment. IMHO the main difference is the "bangun" of the blade. Its hard to explain in words actually..

1st July 2008, 09:44 AM	#9
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	Ganjawulung, I would categorized both kerises posted above as Keris Panjang. Basically it is the form and length that makes it such. You may have heard about keris panjang, anak alang and bahari. Typically most, infact 90% of this were found throughout Sumatra (Riau, Bangkinang, Palembang, Padang, Jambi, etc) and the Malay Peninsular (Malaysia). How can we differentiate the keris from which part/region is another question. Keris bahari refers to the same form (dapur?) but normally less than 12 inches long. Length of 12-16 inches would be anak alang, and longer than 16 inches can be called a keris panjang. This is just my roughly guide.