BANGKINANG & BAHARI kerises?

PenangsangII · 25th June 2008, 07:33 AM

Thank you Amuk, all this while I was thinking that bangkinang, alang, panjang were just names depending on where the keris was found. I'm interested to know more about keris bangkinang that has flat tang in the middle section. And it would be very interesting to know that this type was the Minang's answer to Portuguese rapier. From the information you gathered along the way, was there any description on how the bangkinang keris was used against the rapier? Was it used by the Minang ppl similar to the way the Portuguese used their rapiers?

Thank you in advance.

rasdan · 26th June 2008, 09:38 AM

Hello everybody,

In the state of Perak this type of keris are also known as Baur. If i'm not mistaken, it's an Acheh word according to our forumite Raja Muda. He heard it during his trip there.

http://www.perak.gov.my/sultan/english/baur.htm

ganjawulung · 27th June 2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

In the state of Perak this type of keris are also known as Baur. If i'm not mistaken, it's an Acheh word according to our forumite Raja Muda. He heard it during his trip there.

Beautiful pieces of pusakas. Were all the pusaka blades made by olden local smith? Or from somewhere else? But the sheath was localised. I see that the two last pieces, look like Mindanao sundang...

Amuk Murugul · 27th June 2008, 11:40 AM

Hullo everybody,

Firstly, I am sorry for making a mistake earlier on. What I meant was that the hilt is 12-13 cm.The tang would be about 10 cm.
BTW... the hilt was traditionally curved and conical, tapering toward the nggania (base of blade); variations such as Tapak Koeda etc. was influenced by this keris' popularity in other regions.

I must say again that the Bangkinang was not developed to COMBAT the rapier; rather, it was as the result of the locals being impressed by the rapier i.e. their adaptation of it.

The Bangkinang would not have been used in the same way as a rapier. It would have been a mainly stabbing/thrusting weapon ( similar to the Soenda Pedang Tewek, which in turn was similar to a rapier, with a very slender blade but slightly curved toward its sharp inner edge).

FYI ... Bangkinang has strong links with the peninsula: e.g. the sultan of Melaka sought sanctuary there when he fled from the Portuguese; Datuk Bahaman/Seman Tanah of Pahang was of Bangkinang blood. Maybe more info can be gleaned from these areas.

Earlier I said I was suspicious about the shorter blade. It reminds me of the long straight keris from the Tengger, Eastern Java area (whose form has been extant since the 12th. - 13th. century and which also has a spine along the middle of the blade).

I'm sorry I can't be of further help.

Best.

rasdan · 27th June 2008, 07:16 PM

Hi Ganjawulung,

I never seen the blades, even if I had seen them i can't tell the origin. Sorry.. The last two i think are Malay sundangs. There's an old photo somewhere in this forum posted by Mr. VVV (if i'm not mistaken) showing the Sultan of Perak with his followers. One of them is holding a Sundang.

ganjawulung · 28th June 2008, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

I never seen the blades, even if I had seen them i can't tell the origin. Sorry.. The last two i think are Malay sundangs. There's an old photo somewhere in this forum posted by Mr. VVV (if i'm not mistaken) showing the Sultan of Perak with his followers. One of them is holding a Sundang.

Thank you, Rasdan, for the useful information. Is there any significant difference, between Malay sundangs and Filipino sundangs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Here's a pic of a pesi which seems to be unaltered and is only about half the length you give. (I'm going to post the exact measurements later.)

I may have seen a dozen other pesi of this keris type but all had unspectacular sizes. Any pic of those (partially) flattened pesi would be great, too!

(Additional info for Kai and Amuk) the supposed to be a "bangkinang" I've shown before, has a pesi/tang's size of 6,5 cm long, round but bigger than normal. But the supposed to be "bahari" keris, is quite much longer -- 7,8 cm but smaller than the "bangkinang". Here are the pics...

David · 28th June 2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Thank you, Rasdan, for the useful information. Is there any significant difference, between Malay sundangs and Filipino sundangs?

Just a technicality, but i believe that the word "sundang" is not specific to keris in the Philippines. It is a word used to describe many different swords. It seems that kris or kalis are more specific.

kai · 29th June 2008, 12:23 AM

Hello Ganja,

Quote:

Is there any significant difference, between Malay sundangs and Filipino sundangs?

The scabbards are definitely Malay. Malayan keris sundang often have blades which seem to originate from Moro smiths; those of local Malay manufacture often have distinct features.

Quote:

the supposed to be a "bangkinang" I've shown before, has a pesi/tang's size of 6,5 cm long, round but bigger than normal.

Yeah, that looks like what I'm used to.

BTW, my piece has a pesi length of 6.0 cm (2.36") and a blade (without pesi) of 51.4 cm (20.24").

Quote:

But the supposed to be "bahari" keris, is quite much longer -- 7,8 cm but smaller than the "bangkinang".

Thanks for the pics. I have to admit that this one looks odd to me: It's certainly not a regular keris bahari and I suppose it's not from Sumatra nor Malaya. I know that Alan has quite a few distinct examples - maybe he can comment on Javanese styles?

BTW, are you sure, this is an old blade? For the time being, I even wouldn't want to exclude a recent Madurese origin...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 28th June 2008, 12:20 AM

Hello Amuk,

Thanks for your contributions!

Quote:

The tang would be about 10 cm.

Are you sure?

Here's a pic of a pesi which seems to be unaltered and is only about half the length you give. (I'm going to post the exact measurements later.)

I may have seen a dozen other pesi of this keris type but all had unspectacular sizes. Any pic of those (partially) flattened pesi would be great, too!

Regards,
Kai

25th June 2008, 07:33 AM	#1
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thank you Amuk, all this while I was thinking that bangkinang, alang, panjang were just names depending on where the keris was found. I'm interested to know more about keris bangkinang that has flat tang in the middle section. And it would be very interesting to know that this type was the Minang's answer to Portuguese rapier. From the information you gathered along the way, was there any description on how the bangkinang keris was used against the rapier? Was it used by the Minang ppl similar to the way the Portuguese used their rapiers? Thank you in advance.

26th June 2008, 09:38 AM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hello everybody, In the state of Perak this type of keris are also known as Baur. If i'm not mistaken, it's an Acheh word according to our forumite Raja Muda. He heard it during his trip there. http://www.perak.gov.my/sultan/english/baur.htm

27th June 2008, 11:40 AM	#4
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo everybody, Firstly, I am sorry for making a mistake earlier on. What I meant was that the hilt is 12-13 cm.The tang would be about 10 cm. BTW... the hilt was traditionally curved and conical, tapering toward the nggania (base of blade); variations such as Tapak Koeda etc. was influenced by this keris' popularity in other regions. I must say again that the Bangkinang was not developed to COMBAT the rapier; rather, it was as the result of the locals being impressed by the rapier i.e. their adaptation of it. The Bangkinang would not have been used in the same way as a rapier. It would have been a mainly stabbing/thrusting weapon ( similar to the Soenda Pedang Tewek, which in turn was similar to a rapier, with a very slender blade but slightly curved toward its sharp inner edge). FYI ... Bangkinang has strong links with the peninsula: e.g. the sultan of Melaka sought sanctuary there when he fled from the Portuguese; Datuk Bahaman/Seman Tanah of Pahang was of Bangkinang blood. Maybe more info can be gleaned from these areas. Earlier I said I was suspicious about the shorter blade. It reminds me of the long straight keris from the Tengger, Eastern Java area (whose form has been extant since the 12th. - 13th. century and which also has a spine along the middle of the blade). I'm sorry I can't be of further help. Best.

27th June 2008, 07:16 PM	#5
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Ganjawulung, I never seen the blades, even if I had seen them i can't tell the origin. Sorry.. The last two i think are Malay sundangs. There's an old photo somewhere in this forum posted by Mr. VVV (if i'm not mistaken) showing the Sultan of Perak with his followers. One of them is holding a Sundang.